Voices of Leadership: Insights and Inspirations from Women Leaders

The ​Journey ​From ​Bias to ​Belonging: ​Insights ​From Tonie Ch​altas on ​Gender​ Bias, ​Diversity, ​Equity, ​Inclusion and ​Belonging and ​Women’s ​Path to the C-Suite

August 07, 2024 • Bespoke Productions • Season 1 • Episode 21

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Ever wondered how navigating gender bias at sea could transform your leadership journey?

On today's episode, we are joined by Toni Chaltas, CEO of Achēv. Tonie shares many inspiring stories and valuable insights, including her adventures aboard the Blue Nose II tall ship, where she confronted gender bias and learned the vital lesson of choosing her battles wisely. Setting the stage for her impactful work in fostering equity and inclusion.

Throughout our conversation, Toni delves into the nuances of diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging (DEIB) and provides her expert advice on initiating DEIB efforts in companies of all sizes.

Toni also offers invaluable advice for women aspiring to enter the C-suite, stressing continuous learning and adapting communication styles to different organizational contexts. We explore Achēv's mission to create faster paths to prosperity for newcomers and disadvantaged Canadians through innovative strategies and specialized women's programs. From training and job placement to year-long follow-ups, discover how Achēv is making a tangible impact on fostering DEIB.

Connect with Tonie:
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Resources:
Achēv
Bluenose II

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Tonie:

Diversity is being asked to the dance, inclusion is being asked to dance, equity is how much space you get on the dance floor and belonging is about who chooses the music, and that's always really resonated with me in a way to help us understand that there's different levels of belonging and inclusion and we need to be mindful of all of it, and language matters. So getting these words right really does matter.

Amy:

Welcome to Voices of Leadership, the podcast that shines a spotlight on the remarkable women of the International Women's Forum. I'm your host, Amy, and I'm inviting you on a journey through the minds of trailblazers. On today's episode, we welcome Toni Chaltas. Toni is the CEO at Achieve, a charitable organization that helps create faster pathways to prosperity for its clients, who are primarily newcomers. We talk about her adventures aboard the Blue Nose II, a tall ship out of Lunenburg, where she confronted gender bias and learned the vital lesson of choosing her battles wisely. She confronted gender bias and learned the vital lesson of choosing her battles wisely. We also discuss diversity, equity and inclusion, and Toni provides her expert advice on initiating DE&I efforts in companies of all sizes. We also talk about transitions, and Toni offers valuable advice for women entering the C-suite. Hi, Toni, Welcome to the podcast. Thank you for being here, oh, Amy thank you.

Tonie:

I just think this is such a great initiative and what an honor to have the opportunity to join you today. Thank you.

Amy:

Oh, that's so lovely. We're happy to have you. I'm excited. We have never met, so I've read a little bit about you, but I'm very excited for our conversation today Me too, so let's start with IWF. You are a member of the Toronto chapter and you've also served on the executive, so can you tell us how long have you been a member of IWF and who introduced you?

Tonie:

So I actually had to look it up because I couldn't remember. I knew it was a long time ago. I joined in about 2008 and Sylvia Kraminska is a dear friend and she brought me in and my very first event was a dine around in Pauline Couture's home. Oh lovely. And, if I can a little story, I sat beside Anne Medina at dinner and, of course, the dine arounds are the gems, as we all know, and you're very open and honest.

Tonie:

And somebody asked me how my, you know, first year of experience at IWF was and I shared my views and some of them weren't as positive perhaps as others would have experienced themselves. And Ann Medina is like, perhaps as others would have experienced themselves. And Ann Medina is like OK, we've got a planning meeting, You're coming and you're going to share what you just said. So I did, I attended and I was honest. And then the next thing, you know, my dear friend Sylvia became the chapter president. She's like OK, you're coming on the executive with me. So it was a bit of IWF baptism by fire. It was very quick from membership to sitting on the executive, which I did for two years, and it was a great way to get to know the organization and, most importantly, the amazing women that make up IWF.

Amy:

Oh, the Dinerows are my favorite too, yeah, and I think I maybe have ended up on a board or whatnot after expressing my views somewhere, so I think that's sometimes how we get into it. Right it is? Yeah, it really is. So let's start in your university days, okay, because there's a story I'm quite curious about. Let's start in your university days, because there's a story I'm quite curious about. Unfortunately, many of us have experienced some form of sexism or barriers because of our gender, especially early in our careers. You have one of the more unique stories around gender bias that I've ever heard. While you were at Dalhousie, you were part of the first mixed crew on the Blue Nose 2, which is a tall ship out of Lunenburg. Can you tell us about your experience on the Blue Nose 2, which is a tall ship out of Lunenburg? Can you tell us about your experience on the Blue Nose and how it shaped your views on women's rights and equality?

Tonie:

So I'll start out with the really great stuff, because there was a lot.

Tonie:

As a matter of fact, the majority of it was an amazing experience.

Tonie:

She's an incredible vessel and it was, you know, a once in a lifetime experience to live on the boat for the summer and and be a part of a small crew that got the boat ready for the season and then traveled throughout Nova Scotia and we also went down to Boston and it was an incredible experience.

Tonie:

But it was the first year that they had a mixed crew, as you said, males and females, so there were four women and eight men, and everything about it was new for the Blue Nose organization run by the government, so it's part of the Ministry of Tourism and you know they've never had to think about how the clothing that they bought for decades needed to change a little. You know literally everything the arrangements they got the sleeping arrangements right, which was great, but the big challenge was, at the end of the day, there were a lot of people who didn't believe women belonged on the Blue Nose. She has an amazing heritage and with the tall ship and the sailing history comes a lot of myth, and one of them is that women are bad luck on a boat.

Amy:

Oh, I didn't know that.

Tonie:

So you had that. You had the real traditionalists who felt that we would bring bad luck. Then you had men who just simply didn't want the change, didn't feel like women belonged, couldn't do it. There's a degree of physical activity being a crew member on a tall ship, some muscle, some upper body strength, which we know women traditionally have less than men, just genetically. So they wrapped it all around that. So there was a lot of subtle biases, unconscious and lots of conscious bias that came into play.

Tonie:

Lots of things that they made the crew do that year that they never made previous crews do, I remember. In particular, again, she has the largest working mainsail in the world. So the mast, the big tall stick that holds up the mast for those who don't sail is pretty high off the deck, and when you're sailing, like when you're a dock and you're up at a height, when the wind blows, it moves a little bit, but when you're at sea it really moves the further up the mast you get. And so in the past they never actually asked men to go up if they didn't want to. Well, my summer everybody had to, and you didn't have to do it just at dock, you had to do it when we were at sea. So we had a harrowing experience with not just a woman but also other crew members who really couldn't handle it. It's hard and if you have a fear of heights heights and there's no sex attached to that fear, you know it's it is very, very difficult. So we did have one woman who who really had a challenge. The further up she got. We also had a guy do the same, and so stuff like that just made for some moments where even even the men on the boat would just shake their head and they'd see it coming.

Tonie:

I mean, the crew were fantastic, fighting that tradition and that heritage. She's such an icon in Canada and then in Nova Scotia she's, you know, on a pedestal. She's, you know, on a pedestal. So to challenge that was, you know. It took a different perspective that I'd never had to have before and I really learned the meaning of pick your battles. I really did, you know, because there were some things that just simply weren't worth fighting over. There were other things that we knew we needed to deal with so that the next crew of women wouldn't have to deal with. But all that said, it created a mindset for me that carried forward. But it was an incredible experience. She's an amazing, amazing vessel and the crew were fantastic.

Amy:

It sounds like an amazing experience, yeah, and good for you being so young to understand the concept of picking your battles, but also being able to stand up for yourself. That's not easy to do when you're in university and you're maybe not even expecting it. No, I'd never encountered it before it was totally foreign, which we hope becomes more and more true as we move on right.

Tonie:

Absolutely, and I think we're seeing more of it not as much as we'd like, but we are seeing some. But yeah, that experience really did open my eyes, made me realize that there was a bit of an imbalance out there, depending on your gender, and it informed very much what I became and who I am today.

Amy:

Well, I think that is probably really good for all of the people you've influenced along the way, so it's probably good you had that experience. Yeah, I think so On that. So a lot of your work involves diversity, equity and inclusion, which, especially now, are quite widely used terms but sometimes not fully understood. So how do you define DE&I?

Tonie:

Yeah, it is, and it's evolving, right? You know, I think the murder of George Floyd, magnified by the emotion and everything that was going on in the pandemic, really opened a lot of eyes to what was happening beyond just the gender issue, which we all understood. And and so, even at the beginning of that, to where we are today, the language has changed. You know, it was diversity then it was diversity, equity and inclusion now, and then it came then belonging and now accessibility, which is also another big piece of it.

Tonie:

So somebody once gave me an analogy which I love, and it's diversity is being asked to the dance, inclusion is being asked to dance, equity is how much space you get on the dance floor and belonging is about who chooses the music. And that's always really resonated with me, in a way to help us understand that there's different levels of belonging and inclusion and we need to be mindful of all of it. And working with newcomers and racialized Canadians, you really do see the barriers that they face, the bias and the unconscious bias, which is real. We've got a lot of history to relearn and a lot of awareness, but it is great that it's evolving and I love that it's now evolved to the point where we're also talking about accessibility for both visible and invisible challenges that people face, and language matters, so getting these words right really does matter.

Amy:

I agree, language does matter and I love that analogy. It's very simple, we can all understand it at all ages. That's an excellent analogy and I liked that analogy. It's very simple, we can all understand it at all ages. That's an excellent analogy and I liked how you're talking now about accessibility. I spoke with Jane Halford from the. She's from at West, from the Edmonton chapter, and she does a lot of work with the Rick Hansen Foundation and she talked about that's. Part of their mandate now is adding accessibility to the DEI conversation. And then there's the whole point, the neurodiverse side of it, which I'm personally quite interested in, and that's got to be a more difficult thing to teach people how to include, I imagine.

Tonie:

Well, you know it's funny. I mean, in any evolution of an issue there's an arc right where it will, you know, bubble below the surface, not a lot of awareness, mainstream awareness, and then, depending on what it is, it's just going to stay flat. And then there's the backlash that happens and I feel like we're at that stage now where there's a little bit of backlash or fatigue. There's nothing that upsets me more than when I get in one of those conversations when somebody says, oh, can't we move on? And I feel like it was 30 years ago, and they're saying, oh, women are equal, can't we just move on? And it's like, no, we can't.

Tonie:

These things are generational and interesting. On the neurodivergent piece, I almost feel the conversations I have there are slightly different, because people can look at it and say there's a medical issue there, and I almost feel like that's the same with accessibility too, whereas the other issues around ethnicity and race, cultural considerations are a little different, I'll say esoteric. For some people they're just that little bit further away, whereas medical issues they can seem to wrap their head around easier and there's a little bit more acceptance. So it's, you know, just as a student of how these things evolve and acceptance in cultures. That's my observation. Where it's going to go, I don't know, but that piece is still relatively new and I would say the awareness of it is really just starting to arc up. You know, it's a term that I only really started to hear about about a year ago and I don't know, maybe I'm just not in the know on that part, but I still feel like it's treated slightly differently.

Amy:

Yeah, I agree that the awareness is starting to ramp up. I see that in a couple of places and and things like that. But I'm wondering with all of this is you know you put a policy in place or you say this is what you're supposed to do. How do you prevent it from being box checking to actual cultural?

Tonie:

change. You know what I firmly believe it's got to start at the top. If the CEO is not on board, if it's not created as a meaningful initiative that people are held account for delivering, and it's baked into performance evaluations and people have to report on it, then I believe it becomes a tick box. I have because I volunteered with the Black North initiative for its almost first two years. My role was to onboard the new signatories and then I checked back in after a year and you could really see the difference in the organizations who truly were committed all the way up to the top and how much they could accomplish. I mean there were some amazing CEOs who I worked directly with who really drove real change and it was sustained and meaningful. And there were others that I think started off truly committed they really did, I wasn't questioning that and then, when it had to move down into the organization, I think it just became one of those many things that had to happen and the executive team perhaps weren't made as accountable as they should have been. And I think it starts there and I also think it has to start with the foundation of data and information about what's really happening on the ground. So by actually listening to staff.

Tonie:

I was a big believer in something I did when I first walked in the door at Achieve, which was bring in a third party to do a series of listening events. So meet with staff, safe spaces, round tables, no management in the room and people talking about their real experiences. And we're pretty diverse at Achieve. So we speak 52 languages, 24 cultural regions around the world represented with over about 400, close to 500 staff now. So everybody kind of said, oh, you've got this.

Tonie:

And I'm like, yeah, we got the diversity piece Does not mean we've got the equity, inclusion and belonging piece. And so listening to staff, getting the data, understanding what's really going on Because as a CEO or in the C-suite, you are removed. Because, as a CEO or in the C-suite, you are removed Despite everything you do your title and your position alone means you aren't necessarily going to know what's happening on the ground. So I think you've really got to start there. You've got to focus on fixing the problems that exist, not fixing your assumptions of what the problems are that exist not fixing your assumptions of what the problems are.

Amy:

Oh, I like that. That's very good advice. Yeah, so you talked a little bit about how larger organizations attack or address DE&I. How would a smaller business sort of get started when they want to look at it in their company and make some real change and they might not have the budget or the staff, so how would that?

Tonie:

work. I think you can do the same things, just do them differently. So the round tables instead of the boss going in, maybe there's a line manager, you know they go in and have a round table, or maybe you just appoint a staff member to do something, or you do you know old school suggestion boxes or like. I think there's lots of ways you can gather information. But I think the critical piece the smaller the organization, the more intense it's going to be. And it's about psychological safety. And you know a word again we hadn't heard that word 10 years ago. Nobody talked about that. We all knew what it, what it really meant, but hadn't put a label on it.

Tonie:

And I think in smaller environments it's harder, it's more intense and I think the first thing that you've got to do is create an environment where people feel safe to share how they feel and there's no retaliation. But it's also leading by example. It's even more magnified in a small organization. So if a CEO or a founder or, you know, a manager wants to make a change, they can embody that change. Because it is amazing. As a new CEO relatively new, three years now it's always amazed me how what I do impacts so much and how staff watch everything and they will model because they see that that's what's acceptable and what's expected. So I think that's where any size business can do that.

Amy:

Yes, I agree, leadership from the top is sort of universal, regardless of the size of your business.

Tonie:

Yeah, isn't it? It really is. Yeah, it's pretty much the recipe for a lot.

Amy:

Everything should start, so let's talk a little bit about you. You've been the COO at Hill NNolton Strategies and now you are the CEO at Achieve. Can you tell us about your transition into the C-suite, what you learned through your journey and how do you now support others when they're making the same transition?

Tonie:

So it was interesting. At one of our client panels at Hill Nolton years and years ago, somebody was talking to us it was a staff event about their career and something they said resonated so deeply with me that it now is what I say to people. And they said they started off thinking about their career as a triangle, and I did too. I always thought that you would rise to the top by being a subject matter expert and that was the pinnacle of success. But when you turn around and you make that move into the C-suite and you're sitting at an executive table, all of a sudden it's not a triangle. The shape of your career now is, I believe, just changed into an hourglass, because when you're at the executive table, you're expected to know about all parts of the business. Yes, you're sitting there wearing a hat and maybe you're the CHRO or you're the CFO, but when somebody's talking about a particular line of business that's in crisis or is a huge growth opportunity, you need to understand enough about that business to be able to add your perspective. That's informed. And so for me, the big aha was when I moved into a national role that put me at the executive table. All of a sudden I had to do two things I had to understand parts of the business I didn't have to really learn about before, so I needed to understand all of our lines of business. I needed to understand a lot more about finance, a lot more about legal and HR and operations. But I also needed to find my voice, and I probably found it before that. But it's a different voice when you're sitting at the executive table and I think those two things that hourglass and finding your voice are often the two pieces that I, when I'm mentoring colleagues or associates who are making that leap into the C-suite, I talk a lot about and I I help them think about in ways maybe perhaps they hadn't, but you know finding your voice. They hadn't, but you know, finding your voice.

Tonie:

Having the strength to articulate a point of view at least for me, meant I needed it to be grounded in a level of understanding on the issue that I didn't have. So it meant I really needed to go to school and I needed to learn pieces of the business. I needed to spend time with those leaders. I needed to read about things. I needed to dive into a P&L and a balance sheet like I hadn't had to do before. I needed to understand employment law, the basics of employment law, and in many ways that was magnified as a chief operating officer because you really I mean a lot of those pieces ended up reporting to me. But I think those are the critical pieces where they make that leap into the C-suite a little easier. Is going in understanding you're there but you've really got to ramp up your learning journey in areas that you wouldn't have thought you had to learn about.

Amy:

That's very good advice. So you talked about the hourglass and you talked about learning and education. Is there one other thing that you lean on every day as a CEO that you believe is essential for all leaders?

Tonie:

You know I spent 25 years in communications, so that was kind of the pinnacle of my triangle was comms and of course I was passionate about it. I wasn't the top communicator at H&K we've got. We had unbelievably brilliant communicators. So when I became a CEO I really misunderstood that skill and that importance of that skill. Every single day I realize everything, and so the storytelling in particular, and to an audience, so understanding who you're speaking to and really making sure that you're tailoring your message to them, which is fundamental in advocacy.

Tonie:

So a lot of my career was as a government relations consultant. As a lobbyist, I was an advocate for my clients' issues, so I was not bad at actually putting a point forward. But when you're in and dealing with internal issues and for me in a charity and in a social services charity, having come from the private sector, my language was different. Everything from we don't have P&Ls, we have statements of operations to. You know aggressive business language, driving things forward. You know competition, we have coopetition, we have partners, all of those communication skills more than I ever imagined I would, and it sounds simplistic but it really has made a difference in, I think, how I've led.

Amy:

Well, it goes back to what you said earlier. Language is important and that was such a great example of corporate language versus nonprofit language and I assume that's quite a big, wide gap, I think. But I'm assuming lots of people could apply that to even smaller transitions or departments as well.

Tonie:

That language matters Very true, very true, and you know the transition. I had no idea what I was in for, I knew that it was going to be different, but I I I've sat on lots of boards, I've been a volunteer. But to actually move over and and to to work in a charity, and in a social services charity where the vast majority of our staff are social workers, so that EQ, that soft, that leading by heart, is such a big part of who we are at Achieve, and and that's that was just so different than the environment that I came from. That was one of the biggest lessons was, you know, trying to again communicate in a way that they could relate to that. I didn't scare them, I didn't. You know they didn't look at me and say, oh, she doesn't understand that, she can't relate to what we do. You know she doesn't understand the impact that we can have with our clients and how difficult that work is and how emotionally challenging that work is. So it was a huge transition.

Amy:

Now that you've made the transition, do you enjoy this environment more than the corporate environment, or is it just different?

Tonie:

It's probably one of the best jobs I've ever had and wrapped in that is, I kind of like being the CEO. I have to say I love the challenge of that job and everything it entails, but I also I love what we do. The staff are amazing. They literally change lives every day, every day, and it's only become more important in terms of getting new immigrants settled and into the labor market as quickly as we can, because that's what will make Canada thrive, it's what makes communities vibrant and, at the end of the day, it's what allows families to succeed and thrive in our country. So incredibly meaningful.

Tonie:

The demand for those skills is not going to change. It's only going to grow. We simply don't have enough of the population that's born in Canada to fulfill the needs in the labor market today. I know there's lots of challenges around immigration, but I believe we've got to sort through that and come up with a way that allows us to continue to support them and create faster paths to prosperity for them, because it's a win, win, win for everybody the employer gets skills in need, the Canadian economy thrives and people can succeed and support their families and live a fulfilling life in Canada. Sorry, I can really get on about that topic.

Amy:

I love passion and I love that you say that it's the best job you've had, and not everyone can say that ever or later in their career, who knows? It's just so lovely to hear, so I'd like to learn a little bit more about Achieve. So it has an interesting purpose statement creating faster paths to prosperity. Can you tell us what that means and how you achieve it?

Tonie:

Sure, and we just launched it actually. Oh, congratulations, thank you. So we're all talking a lot about purpose this week at Achieve. For us, our vision of the future, we just also laid down our updated our strategic plan, and it really is about making it easy for clients to access the services they need when they need them, how they need them, where they want them, and if they have easier access, they can get to where they need to go faster, and for us, what that means is creating an environment that puts all of these services in one place, physical and virtual.

Tonie:

So I'm really excited about a bit of a tech forward strategy that Achieve has for the creation of an omni-channel experience. You know it's now an old retail term. It's been used for a long time and a lot of organizations are adopting the concept, but it's about that seamless client journey at every single touch point that an individual engages with your organization. So for Achieve, we have nine offices across the GTA, but we offer online services and hybrid services that span Canada, and we also have a self-serve online tool that is global, and so our primary purpose is supporting people in their settlement when they arrive, helping them learn languages, which is French and English for us as well as get jobs, and we serve about 80% newcomers as well as disadvantaged, challenged Canadians, so we've got a broad perspective. We have well over 50 programs and services that we offer, specialized services for women, which I'm really excited about.

Tonie:

We launched a women's pillar now well over a year ago, as well as one for youth, and we also support employers and we have a technology pillar where we're doing building technology platforms and managing them for the language services sector and expanding in that area as well. So lots going on at Achieve and, I believe, a really exciting future, which really is about making sure clients understand the services that they can access for free, including employers. We do free recruitment for employers and that's the best kept secret on Main Street and Bay Street, which we're trying to change. But organizations like us that are funded by the Ontario government through employment services actually help employers recruit and retain staff. So great way to diversify a workforce because our talent pool is highly educated. Over 60% have at least university degrees, which is a bit of a myth that people don't quite they think they're low skill. Most of the newcomers are highly educated and accessing that talent pool is free for employers.

Amy:

Wow, well, I'm glad that you mentioned that, because I'm sure there's lots of people that didn't know that. Yeah, they can call us. It does sound all very exciting. Can you tell us a little bit more about your women-focused programs?

Tonie:

Sure, a lot of our programs that we build are have a couple of components. They have a training component where there's in classroom or on the job and then there's job placement. So it's can be sector specific. For example, we have one in seniors care. It's a really great program. It's designed for racialized and newcomer women who have been out of the workforce for an extended period of time, and it's working with some employer partners who have seniors homes who help them transition back into the workforce, and many of those placements actually result in full-time jobs.

Tonie:

So, on top of the skills that they learn through the in-classroom and on-the-job training, achieve also provides what we call wraparound services.

Tonie:

So we help them understand those Canadian cultural issues and challenges and norms in a workforce that might be very different than what they're used to in their other countries, help them craft their CVs, prepare for interviews and then, in many cases, help them settle into jobs and figure it out.

Tonie:

We also have an incredible program it's the first one that we've done that supports women who face domestic violence, and we have counseling services that support them to get access to the services they need. So it's a little bit of if you can think of it almost as a navigator or a concierge service. Women in crisis, especially racialized women, newcomer women, don't understand their rights and the norms of what should be expected, but most of all, the services that they can access. And in very difficult circumstances, where often husbands are monitoring phones won't leave them alone, don't let them leave the house without somebody. So it's the great thing about Achieve is we can wrap it around other programs so it can be that they're coming in for one service when in fact, we can support them with this other service as well.

Amy:

Well, that's very important because it can be hard to access, and especially if there's additional cultural barriers on top of it.

Tonie:

Absolutely Yep. So around 60% of our clients are women. So by creating the women's pillar we really intentionally now are ensuring that we have programs that support these women in their unique issues and challenges that they face and that we're bringing those together in a meaningful way and we really look forward to expanding those services for women.

Amy:

So you talked about wraparound. So after they're placed and have a job and settled, do you still follow up then to make sure everything's going okay or see if they need anything else?

Tonie:

So in our employment services we stay with the job seeker and we can with the employer for a year. Oh wow. So in part, that's how we're funded. You know, the idea is to be able to support these job seekers and to get them in a job that matches their capabilities. That's sustainable. So helping them get through those challenges of the day and continue to stay in these jobs and growing is really important. So we can stick with them for a year.

Amy:

That's great. I mean, I think everybody would love to have that, because there's so many challenges starting a new job.

Tonie:

Absolutely. And, you know, for the employers we're there as well because in so many ways, while we don't call it this, we're providing them with DEI consulting, understand the cultural challenges that their new employee may be facing and the barriers that we're hearing from this employee that might exist in their workplace, and helping them, you know, bridge those gaps and communicate and get to those real issues and challenges.

Amy:

It sounds like such an all-encompassing program and, to be honest, I had not heard of your company so I was really I'm so excited to learn more about it. It just sounds fantastic. So we've talked all about the programs and we've talked all about you and your leadership and all the wonderful advice you've given us so far. Can you tell us what do you think the biggest challenge facing female leaders today is?

Tonie:

biggest challenge facing female leaders today is, I think, from what I've seen, it really is breaking that barrier between management and executive, and executive to C-suite.

Tonie:

Those are the huge jumps that I see. I feel like a lot of the barriers that we may have faced moving up the ranks are not as challenging, there's no question they still exist. But the leap to get from, you know, lower management to upper management is is still a battle, it's still a challenge. And you know, for women who are coming back into the workforce after having children and doing what they need to do as moms I don't care what anybody says that is still a bias that exists. Employers still can't get their head around that. They have to forget about that and that there's huge value and women shouldn't have to reenter the workforce starting backwards, and they should be able to elevate to those next levels. So while I think we're making progress, I still feel we've got a long way to go and the numbers bear that out. We've seen that in terms of the C-suite, whether it's a CEO role or the next step down, you know we still have low representation. So those to me, are still the big barriers out there.

Amy:

That is kind of what we're hearing. I've talked to many IWF members in many fields law and otherwise and the education is better. It's more 50-50 and the initial workforces, but you're right about the 30s and 40s being so challenging and the drop off rate. It's just like a big steep hill it is.

Tonie:

And pandemic has created a whole new world. We all have different priorities. It gives more flexibility for the organizations that are prepared to adopt that, which I think is making it easier. But it's also made people sit back and reevaluate life and I think the number of women that are continuing to exit the workforce to work independently, to be their own boss they've realized they now have the ability to do that, I think, is we're seeing some systemic shifts and changes that I think will continue to evolve and even with the generation that's coming into the workforce and what they're looking for and some of that is gender specific, but others is just age and what they've lived through and what that now means in their lives. But yeah, we've still got a long way to go in terms of leveling the playing field for women.

Amy:

And I would be. I would be curious going forward. You're right, sometimes it's a choice because of evaluation and options, and then sometimes it's not. So it would be interesting to see what those numbers are, how much is choice and how much is not, exactly yeah.

Tonie:

And I think, as you know, in a couple of years I hope somebody does a really in depth study on that, because there should be enough data to tell us a bit of a story there.

Amy:

Well, thank you, tony, for all of the stories you told. I loved all of them and all of the advice you had. Such a succinct way to understand a little bit more about how DE&I is evolving and what Achieve is doing or achieving.

Tonie:

And I really appreciate you.

Amy:

Thank you, I really appreciate you taking the time to talk with us today, oh thank you so much, amy.

Tonie:

It was great fun and again, thank you for doing this, because I do believe that stories inspire, so hopefully that is part of the outcome of this great initiative.

Amy:

Thank you, Thank you for listening today. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and subscribe to our podcast. When you do this, it raises our podcast profile so more leaders can find us and be inspired by the stories our Voices of Leadership have to share. If you would like to connect with us, please visit the Voices of Leadership website. It can be found in our show notes.

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Amy Schlueter

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