Voices of Leadership: Insights and Inspirations from Women Leaders

Leading With Purpose: A Conversation with Rosa Lupo on the Law, Mentorship, Community Involvement and Leading Beyond Boundaries

• Bespoke Projects • Season 1 • Episode 6

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In this episode, we welcome Rosa Lupo. Rosa is a partner based in the Waterloo office of the Corporate Commercial Group with Gowling WLG, a global law firm. Her specialties include commercial real estate law both locally and globally.

Rosa shares with us the story of how watching the show L.A. Law influenced her decision to become a lawyer. We discuss the importance of using different leadership styles depending on the situation, and Rosa shares her views on mentorship and the importance of letting go of stereotypes and guilt in your career journey.

We explore Rosa’s criteria for sitting on boards and her involvement in the Enova power merger as the Chair of Enova Energy Corporation, Enova Poer’s parent company.

Join us as we learn from Rosa's vast experience and insights on leadership, mentorship, and community involvement.

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Gowling WLG
University of Windsor
Enova Power
L.A. Law

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Rosa Lupo:

And as far as mentors are concerned, I think it takes a village. It doesn't take one, it doesn't take two, it takes a whole bunch of people. Yes, I had a formal mentor. I had a mentor that I spoke to about substantive issues. I had work friends that I could just go and talk to about anything, and they were always available. And then I had IWF.

Amy Schlueter:

Welcome to Voices of Leadership, the podcast that shines a spotlight on the remarkable women of the International Women's Forum who are reshaping industries, defined norms and being instigators of change. I'm your host, amy, and I'm inviting you on a journey through the minds of trailblazers. Each episode is a candid conversation with women leaders from across a variety of industries and sectors. Through these conversations, we aim to ignite a fire of inspiration within you, whether you're a budding leader, a seasoned executive or simply someone with a passion for growth. On today's episode, we welcome Rosa Lupo, a partner at Gowling's WLG, a global law firm. Rosa specializes in commercial real estate law, both locally and globally. Rosa tells us the story of how watching the show LA Law influenced her decision to become a lawyer. She shares with us her views on leadership, mentorship and the importance of letting go of stereotypes throughout your career journey, and her involvement in the Innova Power Merger, where she played a crucial role as chair of the Innova Energy Corporation.

Rosa Lupo:

Hi Rosa, welcome. Thanks, amy. Thanks for having me today. We're so excited to have you on the show. We're excited to be here.

Amy Schlueter:

I usually see you at IWF events. That's actually where we met and we always have a really good time catching up. You have been a member for quite a while, so who introduced you to IWF?

Rosa Lupo:

So it was probably back in 2008. I think it was the inaugural board of the Waterloo chapter who invited me to join IWF and I was a partner at the time and I was really excited about it and I joined right away. I was super excited to be invited.

Amy Schlueter:

So, yes, that's how long I've been there and you are currently on the executive for the Waterloo chapter. Yes, I feel that, though this isn't your first time on the executive, Well, no, I've been on the executive for a while as a matter of fact.

Rosa Lupo:

I was on the executive as just this kind of floating member for probably about six years or something. The reason was because I did want to be at the chair, but I hadn't yet attended a global conference, and so I was kind of sitting there waiting to attend a global conference and be able to find time in my busy life to actually fly somewhere to attend a global conference. And then, lo and behold, we had the global conference in Toronto a couple years ago, and at that point then I attended that conference it was fabulous and I've been hooked on them since and then was able to be chair, and now I sit as past chair.

Amy Schlueter:

So is a criteria to be a chapter chair, then you have to have attended a global conference. That's correct.

Rosa Lupo:

Yes, that is a criteria, so that you have at least and I get why that exists it's so that you have the full experience of what it's like to be a member at IWF, because when you're just involved at your local chapter level, you don't really get what it's all about. It's more when you meet global members from other countries and understand the sisterhood really that it brings. What's your favorite part about the sisterhood? My favorite part is the get togethers, and I think everybody would say their favorite part is the dine arounds. I don't know why. I think it's because it's a smaller group usually and really allows you to connect one on one with the other members, and it feels homey because it's in a home and so it, more so, brings out, lets people's guards down and allows them to actually share ideas and share concepts and share trials and tribulations, and so for me that's the best part For me too.

Amy Schlueter:

I really enjoy the dine arounds. I think that's how I get to know members that I have never met before on a much better level. And then we have more fun at other events because we already know each other, and so on and so forth.

Amy Schlueter:

So let's talk about the law. You are a partner at Gallings and as I was preparing for this interview, I heard a story that your decision to attend law school was influenced by the TV show LA Law and, as a teenager, your ability to present a compelling argument to your parents so you could go out with friends on the weekend. I would like to hear a little more about that.

Rosa Lupo:

Yeah, so I was in high school in the 80s.

Rosa Lupo:

I've kind of aged myself now and LA Law was a really big show and I watched it religiously on Friday nights, if people recall, and it definitely influenced my decision to become a lawyer, and I come from a very traditional Italian background. My parents are immigrants and growing up I was, but I wasn't in an Italian community. I grew up in Guelph, which is Italian but not like Toronto. So it's Italian but not. It's Italian but not. There's a softness there, and so all of my friends were not Italian, and so when we were growing up, they were all out with friends Thursday, friday, saturday. My parents were more of you got to pick a night and you got to be home at a certain hour and why aren't you home for dinner? And so when I was the youngest of three and there's a big H gap too, and my parents were much more strict with my older siblings, for sure, and so that brought about my ability to argue, because I wanted to go out with my friends and do all the things that my friends were doing, you know. So I was arguing with them and creating arguments of why I should be able to go out, and I thought, man, I'm kind of good at this because actually did win most of them, and so, uh, so that's where that came from, of my desire to go to law school.

Rosa Lupo:

Most lawyers will say I wanted to help people. I think I knew lawyers really don't help people per se, and I was all more drawn to the business side of law, for sure. And where did you end up going to law school? Uh, so I went to University of Windsor and that decision was made, funnily enough, because I was engaged at the time that I went to law school, and so my future in-laws live in Windsor, and so I moved in with my future in-laws and, believe it or not, we knew we wanted to come back to KW Guelph at the time, and so and my husband was my future husband was working in London. So this is crazy, but he lived with my parents in Guelph and I lived with his parents in Windsor for two years of law school and two years of our marriage. So we lived that way when we were engaged and then for two years of our marriage, we lived apart and lived with our respective parents, who we're very close to now as a result, and so it was a great experience.

Amy Schlueter:

That's impressive, and a lot of people couldn't say they could do that now.

Rosa Lupo:

I would think no no Best two years of my marriage, Amy.

Amy Schlueter:

Best two years of my marriage we were still excited to see each other on.

Rosa Lupo:

Fridays and get together on the weekends and it had this whole vibe of like student living.

Amy Schlueter:

Yeah, so it was great what we do, what we do you know Exactly and when and where did your interest in commercial real estate law come from?

Rosa Lupo:

So, interestingly enough, I did not go to law school to be a commercial lawyer, so my undergrad was in a honors commerce and I focused on human resources, and so I intended to go to law school to actually be a labor and employment lawyer. That was the goal. I articleed at Gallings, because I wanted to stay local and they have a kitchen or waterloo office, so I articleed there, and they hired me back. And where they hired me back, though, was in the corporate commercial, which was where they had a need. So I worked there for about a year and loved it, had no complaints, and then an opportunity came up at a boutique law firm that focused in labor and employment, and I thought well, here's my chance. This is what I went to law school for, and I took it, and I worked there for two years and hated it.

Rosa Lupo:

So, actually, I didn't decide to do commercial commercial, decided that that's what I was doing, and so it was a bit of a fluke, and so I realized I didn't like that area of the law, because I felt like I was firing somebody every other day.

Rosa Lupo:

I didn't feel like I was at the decision maker table with the clients, because when you do corporate commercial, you're usually talking to the CEO, the CFO of a company. They're the decision makers. When you do labor and employment, you might be talking to the HR person or the HR manager, and they may or may not be decision makers. And so I felt like I wasn't working together with my clients as much as I did when I was doing corporate commercial and at the end of the day I felt that growing that practice area I just fit better with corporate commercial. So I'd love to say I had this conscious decision and this master plan, but, as with all things in life, it was more so. I sort of had a plan and then the universe had a plan for me and the two of them came together and it all worked out. So I think that's where it came from.

Amy Schlueter:

So you are now in charge of the business law department at Gallings, and I suppose that that blends your love of business and now your love of commercial real estate. How does that work then within the firm?

Rosa Lupo:

So it sounds like a great title in a law firm, like I'm the department head and I manage people, so I'm part of the management committee. It's kind of like herding cats, though, really, at the end of the day, because we are a partnership, so it's not the same as being management level in a traditional corporation that has a hierarchy, because the people I'm managing are my partners, and so it becomes a bit of a really soft management role where you are trying to get your partners to comply with policies. We're a very large law firm. We have 750 lawyers across the country. We have 1500 lawyers globally. So there's a rule and a policy and a procedure for everything in an organization that's that large and so it's more so making sure everybody's doing what they need to do.

Rosa Lupo:

The other thing that is really important in that role is kind of setting the tone and the culture for our particular office that fits with the larger organization, and I sit with a committee, like we're a committee of four people. There's a advocacy department head, there's the office managing partner and then our general manager, and we make a lot of decisions together. It's a decision making by committee, but it is it's time consuming. It's very time consuming. It's been a wonderful learning experience because it gives you the opportunity to have those really tricky, difficult conversations and I've grown as a person learning how to do those, learning how to be not wishy washy, to actually get the message across, but in a real method of kindness, empathy and authenticity.

Rosa Lupo:

And people throw around those words a lot, but I think they're actually really important. I think throwing them around too much loses their importance, but I think they are really important. People want to connect, people want to understand that you actually get them and that you actually care about them. And we do at Gallup. We really do care about our people, which is very different for a law firm, to be honest with you and we really care about flattening the hierarchy within the law firm and creating collisions at all levels.

Amy Schlueter:

I love that flattening the hierarchy, because you mentioned the different styles of leadership versus. There's hierarchical leadership which most people learn along their journey from university and through their career. You talked about a sort of software partnership leadership. Was that a different leadership skill you had to learn along?

Rosa Lupo:

the way I did because I came from a business background. Like I had a commerce degree. Right, I came from a business background and you're right through the you know universities they do teach more of the hierarchical leadership, whereas that doesn't work in a law firm with a partnership. You can't be that way because these are your partners that you're leading, and even for associates and for staff members, the associates are future partners that you're leading, so you can't. It's more cooperative.

Rosa Lupo:

We spend a lot of time at a law firm getting buy-in at all levels. Sometimes I get annoyed at that, sometimes I just like a decision to be made and move forward. But I had the opportunity in my role to actually sit on a special committee for a new CEO at the firm at the all Canada level and that was extremely informative for me of that process. So in the course of doing that, what we did was we actually interviewed all the partners in all the offices, so anybody who wanted to meet with us. We had a meeting and I probably met with over 70 partners in our office, like in different offices in Toronto and in Kitchener, waterloo, and the interesting fact for me was that it was a really bold decision that the committee ended up making as far as who was going to be the new CEO, and despite the fact that these partners are spread across Canada.

Rosa Lupo:

There's 400 partners and so in all of these discussions it was so funny how the partners were all aligned and everybody had the same sense of how they wanted the firm to go forward. And there was no pre-disposition to this. There was no like campaigning, there was no, because that's not the way we operate, and it was interesting to watch this thing just make this decision without interacting prior to, and so for me, it's been a really great learning experience as far as, like, how a partnership operates, how it comes together, how it makes decisions, and you do have to spend the time to get buy-in because, again, we're not a hierarchical corp that has one decision maker.

Amy Schlueter:

At the end of the day, so is your partnership from a law firm perspective across Canada than not just this office, correct? Yeah, no, we are across Canada.

Rosa Lupo:

So there are certain law firms that operate on an office by office base. We don't. So our partnership now we have a separate partnership between Canada and the rest of the globe that we amalgamated with into 2016. But across Canada we are one partnership. So that takes a lot of effort to actually keep people all conjoined and congealed and together, because we have offices in Montreal, ottawa, toronto, hamilton, kitchener, waterloo, calgary and Vancouver, so it is spread out, and so our management team spends a lot of time and effort bringing everybody together.

Amy Schlueter:

That's a big job. So, on the topic of partnership, can you talk to us a little bit about the time and effort it takes to become a partner, what your challenges were along the way and over the years? Did you have any mentors?

Rosa Lupo:

So there is a lot of effort that goes into being a partner at a law firm. There is a lot of time, there's a lot of commitment. I was a rarity and the reason I was a rarity was my timing. So most people are not aware of this. But there is two levels of partnership in most law firms, one being an income partner and then the second being an equity partner. They're both partners, but an income partner doesn't really participate in the profits, so it's only the equity partners who participate in the profits. So that's been a recent development and it actually was implemented in the year I was up for partnership. So I was kind of a test case in our local office and our whole cohort was kind of a test case because they implemented this new level of partnership across the firm of income partner and equity partner. And for the last and normally partnership is something that comes up somewhere around six to eight years. So for the last six to eight years I was expecting to just go from associate to equity partner, because that was the track, and then they implemented this new level of partnership and so I became an income partner in 2008 and then I became an equity partner in 2010.

Rosa Lupo:

But for sure I felt jaded at the time, thinking, well, you've changed the game and I didn't sign up for this. Looking back now, I think it was great, because actually what it does is it allows you some period where you have the partner title to the world, but you're not expected yet to have a partner's practice. That means that you have clients that are repeat and ongoing and are bringing in revenue to the firm, and so the progression is actually a good thing. Looking back at the time, I didn't think it was a good thing, but for sure I do now. And as far as mentors are concerned, I think for me it wasn't just mentorship, it's like it was a village. Yes, I had a formal mentor that I would speak to. I had a mentor that I spoke to about substantive issues when I was facing a particular issue with a client or a file. I had mentors who saw my leadership potential. Ross Wells was one of them.

Rosa Lupo:

I never saw myself in leadership, but he did. He kept saying, oh, you're going to run this joint one day, rosa, and he would say things like that to me and I didn't. You know, it wasn't a thought that crossed my mind. I had work friends that I could just go and talk to about anything that was bothering me or that I needed to bounce an idea off of on a file, and they were always available. So I had those people.

Rosa Lupo:

And then, outside of work, I had a very supportive spouse who allowed my career to be foremost in our lives, because it is our lives and the law takes up a lot of your time. And so I had a very supportive spouse. I had very supportive friends who I could just talk to about whatever I was facing and bounce ideas off of. And then I had IWF. And so IWF. I remember going to a couple of events where I was speaking to the women about particular issues that I had just faced at work, and it really was a sisterhood. It really was. I was a safe space for me to chat with them and to actually get ideas. The ideas were great. I went back to the office thinking, well, that's how I'm going to handle it and it was awesome. So I think it takes a village, it doesn't take one, it doesn't take two, it takes a whole bunch of people.

Amy Schlueter:

That's fantastic. You had such a supportive community on your journey, because that's really not always the case. No, so there seems to be a formal mentorship piece in the law. I didn't realize there was one at the partnership level, so that must be helpful. The only sort of mentorship piece I know about is the article inside. Is that really a mentorship piece or is that more of a tryout for the lawyer?

Rosa Lupo:

It's definitely. It's a learning process and a tryout for the lawyer. It's less of a mentorship piece. Once you're an associate, we do have more mentorship. So at the associate level, for sure, we have formal mentors. They have informal mentors. We set all of our associates up at Gallinens with a mentor who is a partner and we try to not just have it be a title. We also plan events around mentors and mentees. Last year we did this process where we gave the mentees a budget and said invite somebody out four times throughout the course of the year for a lunch, a coffee, whatever you want to do, and it could be your mentor or it could be any other partner that you want to sit down and chat with. And our associates really took advantage of it.

Amy Schlueter:

Let me tell you so we did.

Rosa Lupo:

you have a lot of coffee, yeah, yeah we had a lot of coffees, but it was great. I mean, I sat down with some of the associates in different practice areas that I don't get to interact with as much, and it was fabulous. And so we do take it really seriously. We think that having that constant person to speak to about different matters is really important. So currently I'm a mentor for one of the associates and I'm also a mentor recently, actually through the Waterloo Law Association for another partner at another firm.

Rosa Lupo:

Wow, which is kind of neat. It's been a really neat experience. She is currently going to be in management and wanted to speak to somebody about this management role in a law firm and how you do that, and God, I do not have all the answers, but it's been a great relationship because at that level it's a real two-way street. It's always a two-way street between mentor and mentees, but this has really been an interesting experience for me to do this role because she is a partner at a law firm and so we've had lots of great discussions and I'm looking forward to more.

Amy Schlueter:

What a great model. Everybody should really model that. I really like it. I like specifically giving the mentees permission to seek out mentorship, because it makes mentorship flourish then and they're not afraid to approach somebody. They have permission to do so, right.

Rosa Lupo:

It's definitely not a one-way street Like you want. I mean, I think in all the times that I've been a mentor, I think I've learned more than I've imparted, often Because it causes collisions between generational gaps, because I do recognize now, although in my mind I don't think I am. I am the older partner, now I'm a senior partner. God help me.

Amy Schlueter:

We're still 20, right.

Rosa Lupo:

Yeah, yeah, something like that, yes, yeah. So I realized, and it was funny at management, having this experience, I'd say, well, what did the senior partners want to do? And finally somebody at management turned to me and they're like that's you, that's why we're asking you. And so it was a little bit. It was a little bit of shell shock for me to realize that that's where I was, but it's true. And so it causes these collisions to understand where they're coming from and things that they're facing. If nothing else, right, and so for sure it's been enlightening.

Amy Schlueter:

So let's talk a little more specifically about women in the law In general. What is the state of women's leadership within the law?

Rosa Lupo:

So it's improving. It's not great still, like there's still work to be done. I'd say you know, when I started at Gowling, you know we were less than 15% equity partners, women being equity partners at the law firm. We've definitely made huge strides in trying to improve that. I think we are over or close to the 30% at this point. Gowling did a huge study a while ago about equality and equity in a women's study across our equity partnership and kudos to them for taking it on because I think they knew that the results were great.

Amy Schlueter:

They might not like the answer. Good for them, but they did it anyways.

Rosa Lupo:

They shared the results and since then they have actually been implementing more processes in order to make sure that there is equity and that there is further representation. So every time we have a new management position come up, they want to make sure that there is equity on that management committee, so that it's not all white males, that they want to make sure there's diversity. We have a diversity equity inclusion officer for the firm and they have a whole team of people that make sure that this is important in our day to day lives. So they're making strides. They're making big strides. There's still room for improvement, as there always probably will be. Maybe, I don't know, hopefully not one day. But they have taken that study to heart and actually implement policies to make sure that we're at least trying to make movement and move the needle forward.

Amy Schlueter:

That's a step in the right direction, right, exactly. My understanding of the stats from larger law firms perspective is that a number of women in the law drops from law school through partner. So is that true it?

Rosa Lupo:

is so for sure.

Rosa Lupo:

When you look at the stats for law school, I think women are over 50% of the actual graduates from law school.

Rosa Lupo:

You get to associate and I think they drop to about 40% or so of associates or female. Then you get to the income partner, which I spoke about before, and they drop down again. They're probably at about 35% 30% of the income partners and then by the time you get to equity partner then you've dropped again and so they do seem to drop out of the legal profession, especially in private practice, and so it's hard to keep them till they become equity partners, because often family starts to insert itself there and at the end of the day, as much as women we want to believe that we can do it all and be everything and do all of that, it does start to become an issue, and so a lot of the women who are associates in that seven years, six years, before they become income partner maybe start to have families and decide that the juggling act is a bit too much and they will often go in-house or go to other careers that allow a little bit more of balance, which I hate that word but allow allow.

Amy Schlueter:

It's a choice. They're making a choice. They're making a choice for sure. What percentage is here and what percentage is there? Yeah?

Rosa Lupo:

And so it's not always the law firm's fault that we don't have as many in the equity partnership because they make choices that that is a lifestyle choice, and so that that's the reality.

Amy Schlueter:

And then I don't know if this is a valid question or not. Is there a gender pay gap issue in the law? I mean from an equity partner standpoint. I'm assuming not, but on other levels, is there a gender pay gap?

Rosa Lupo:

Definitely not at the associate level.

Rosa Lupo:

Like we are very cognizant about all of that at the associate level, about making sure that there is not a pay gap, and we actually, as a firm, when we are setting our associates' compensation, we run statistics, we break out the women and we break out the men and we actually look at their numbers and look at their pay and make sure that we're not having some unconscious bias. We actually run statistics before we set their comp, so we definitely make a conscious effort to make sure there is not. Is there a pay gap in the profession as a whole? Yes, and that probably is because, as I said, a lot of more. A larger majority of women go in-house versus staying in private practice, which is a different pay. So in the profession, is there a pay gap? Absolutely.

Amy Schlueter:

Okay, so it's everywhere. Yes, yeah, I'm trying to find a place, maybe, where it's not.

Rosa Lupo:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's tricky. It's tricky Through the podcast, but maybe I'll find something. I'm not sure. Yeah, let me know if you do, I will for sure.

Amy Schlueter:

So you talked a lot about your leadership opportunities and a lot of the leadership things you've done within the law, besides being a partner, and some of the committees that you stand, that you sit on. How can lawyers have leadership positions within the industry?

Rosa Lupo:

So they can actually get involved in a lot of ways. So there's always a local law association, so a lot of our lawyers are president, have been president or past president or chair of the Waterloo Law Association. There's the Law Society of Ontario that people get involved in as well. So there's lots of ways that people can lead the profession because the Law Society of Ontario, by way of example, sets all of our professional code of conduct and so people who actually get involved in that actually move the needle on our profession as a whole. And then at the local level, I would say a lot of lawyers get involved in giving back to the community by sitting on boards and so being a member of a board at a charity or something like that is often a way for them to have a leadership role and give back.

Amy Schlueter:

You would think we talked before this interview, because that's a perfect segue. I want to talk about your board work. You are the chair of a Nova Energy Corporation and before we talk about all of what that entails because it involves mergers and all of those things how did you become the chair and how did you get involved?

Rosa Lupo:

So here's another situation where maybe somebody saw more leadership potential in me than I did in me. So a Nova Energy Corporation is the holdco of the entity that actually is the local utility, which is a Nova Power Corporation, and so it's a local hydro utility. So prior to it becoming a Nova, there used to be Kitchener-Wilmonte hydro and there used to be Waterloo North Hydro.

Rosa Lupo:

I was the vice chair of Kitchener-Wilmonte hydro and intending to be the chair of, actually, kitchener Power Corp, which was the holdco of Kitchener-Wilmonte hydro, and then, probably a year into it, we started to talk very seriously about this amalgamation and this merger between the two utilities to make one utility for Kitchener and Waterloo and in my mind I thought, well there goes my chances of being chair.

Rosa Lupo:

I will be honest with you because there was a chair of Wilmonte, of Waterloo North Hydro, there was a chair of Kitchener-Wilmonte hydro, and I figured the decision would be between one of those two chairs, and so I assumed that that was a foregone conclusion. Apparently, nobody else assumed that, and so they actually came to me and said we think you'd be really great at being chair, and I actually think the reason, you know and I'm being a little bit self-degrading here but it wasn't only just because I could do the job and be good at it. It was also because nobody wanted to make a choice between the two chairs, because they wanted this entity to come together and not to have any historical biases. And so I thought, yeah sure, let's do that. That's actually kind of how that came about, and so it has been a great experience because, and now we've.

Rosa Lupo:

I've been in the chair now for just over a year because we completed the merger not this past September, but September of 2022. And it has been a whirlwind as well, and so I was appointing a new CEO Greg Cameron became the new CEO of that entity and doing all of that and having the committee to appoint that, merging the two entities, all the policies and the procedures and setting all the new committees for the new entity it has been a lot of work, but a lot of great work, so it has been a fabulous experience for me.

Amy Schlueter:

And someone who may not know talked to us a little bit about the merger experience. So you start talking about it and then it starts to become a reality that it's going to happen. How did you manage that? Then again, you've got a bunch of leaders in the room, probably, and you're trying to mash them all together. What was that like?

Rosa Lupo:

It was really an interesting experience for me because, remember, I do corporate commercials.

Amy Schlueter:

I do M&A work.

Rosa Lupo:

Exactly, but I do M&A work on the legal side only. So for me it was eye-opening to see it from the business side, because as a lawyer, what you're concerned about is the agreement and getting to close so that the parties are happy and all of the side agreements are all settled, and we thought of every issue that could come up. But once it closes the lawyers don't care anymore. Right, like we're done, we've checked out, and so it was very eye-opening for me to be on the other side of the deal in a sense and be able to see what it looks like from that perspective and what the concerns are and all the work that goes into it, because I knew there was a lot of work that led up to the closing day, but after that I check out so I don't really have to worry about what happens afterwards. So you know, there was union organization, there was union collective agreements that had to be settled. They had to make sure that the culture of the two entities was coming together, which they're doing a fabulous job at doing that. They had to make sure that there was collisions and it wasn't an us and them between the two historical entities and emerging of all the policies and procedures emerging of the billing system for clients, like something that I would never think of as a lawyer on the front end. So it was a great experience, it was fabulous.

Rosa Lupo:

And how long will you be the chair then? At least three years. So I'm in my. I'm just about to start. I just started my second year and there will be another year. The agreement was settled that for three years the board would be kind of set, unless somebody didn't want to continue in order to allow that continuity. And so at least three years, and then we'll see after that.

Amy Schlueter:

So I'd like to try and take a minute to talk about, because we talk a lot about the importance of women on boards. I really would like you to really try and explain how important you being the chair and you being the chair as a woman during this merger in this big corporation really is, because that is not always the norm and it's not just a board. That's not that charitable organizations are bad. We all do that, but to do it at the level that you just did, it is such a big deal, and can you explain to us, like, on what level and how important it was that you did that and what a great example it is for the rest of us?

Rosa Lupo:

Yeah, I think there's two things that are different. There are often a lot of women on boards that charitable non-for-profits it's true. The numbers decrease once you get to a paid board position. That's a for-profit entity, and so it was odd to even be on the board. It was very odd to actually chair the board, and then it was triply odd to actually have an M&A at the time that you are the chair, which is you know. There are very few people who could probably speak to that at a board level for a for-profit corporation, and so I think that experience was so different from the norm of what people experience. Now, anova has done a really great job and always takes equity and diversity inclusion into account when they're appointing new board members, and I can say that from experience, not only just personally, but when we were looking for new board members for the new merged entity, that was one of the boxes that they were intent on checking, and so I think that that speaks volumes to their forward thinking. I think boards for those type of entities are all trying to get there and trying to make strides.

Rosa Lupo:

I know that there are some women who maybe think that actually having quotas is a bad thing. I'm not one of them. So I actually think quotas mean that those entities will now look outside the normal circle that they look to to fill the quota and still end up with fabulous board members, and so it just forces the issue. And if I'm going to make it on a board because I happen to be a woman, so be it, because I know I can do the job, and so for me, if that's how I end up there, okay, all it did was open a door, and that's been happening for decades that people needed doors open for them. So if that's my competitive advantage, that it opens a door for me, I know I can deliver afterwards and I'm not upset about it and I don't feel like it belittles my skill.

Amy Schlueter:

No one gets on a board generally on their resume alone. They open the door, something. It's someone that they know, or something that they've done, or something that they represent that the board needs. They need board members for certain reasons, whether it's your expertise or otherwise. So I agree with you completely on that one. Exactly so did you? Do you feel like you've left the board, from a representation standpoint, in a better place than you found it?

Rosa Lupo:

Yeah, we have, we now have. You know, it is almost, I'd say it's almost 50, 50 between wow that's fantastic on the board. So it is great and we have fabulous board members who are really committed to the organization and moving it forward, and some board members have this extensive knowledge of the energy field and. I do not, I do not come to it from that perspective, but so it is. It's been a fabulous board, for sure.

Amy Schlueter:

So you fell into this one a little bit. In general, how do you choose which boards you want to be a part of? What is your personal criteria?

Rosa Lupo:

So for me, I think so. At one stage in my life and it wasn't over time, it was like like two or three years where I was on six boards.

Rosa Lupo:

Wow, that's a lot In addition to my job and in addition to my life and so it was a lot and I realized I had to cut back because I wasn't really contributing and I felt like I was going on boards just because I was asked. And I think there's two criteria for me now for a board, having learned from my experience. One is if I'm going to sit on a not-for-profit or charitable board, it has to mean something to me other than the fact that it's a not-for-profit and a charity and a good organization. It has to mean something to me personally. Does it have some relevance to me in my day-to-day life?

Rosa Lupo:

So I've sat on KW Counseling's board in the past and that's because in my life I've had counseling and I thought it was a great thing to have and so I really resonated with the work that the organization was doing. And then for the other boards I guess I'll call them more the for-profit board positions I think it's important for me to learn from them, to have something that I can take away from that board experience other than being a bum in the seat. So is there something that that organization is doing that's kind of neat or cool, or a change in the industry that I feel like I can be a part of?

Amy Schlueter:

That's great criteria. I might use that. So what is your advice for young women leaders, lawyers or otherwise?

Rosa Lupo:

So this is going to sound kind of old school, but I swear I feel like it. It's letting go of the old stereotypes because I actually think we're harder on ourselves than society actually is, and so I think it's letting go of the old stereotypes of what your role is in the world. It's letting go of what your role is at home. So I had a really hard learning experience early on, being a partner, being a mom, because I'm a mom of three. When my children got sick, even though I had a really demanding career, I stayed home because I thought, oh, that's my role.

Rosa Lupo:

And I will never forget I woke up one morning in my youngest, who was like you know around, maybe under one, woke up with a fever, and it was at that age where you know if you had a fever, you kind of took them to the doctor like it wasn't. You know they weren't five or you just pumped them with that. So you know we needed to look into it. But I had literally a $60 million closing that day and so we woke up the morning and it was after 7 am and my husband's a teacher and so they have supply, but normally there was a method of getting a supply online as long as you did it before 7.

Rosa Lupo:

So it was after 7 am and my youngest woke up and he had a fever and my husband said well, I can't do it, it's after 7. And I literally looked at him and said 80% of your workforce is female. They take all the sick days, figure it out. I got to go to work today I'm going but it took a lot for me to do that. I felt guilty all day. All day I felt guilty, although I was running around closing this massive deal.

Rosa Lupo:

There was this little voice in the back of my head saying you know you should have been home. And now, to my husband's credit, I got home and the first thing he said to me when I walked in the door was I'm so sorry. I said that you were absolutely right, that was my job. That was my job. Of course there was a process. I just didn't know how to access the process. And after that he took all the sick days. I stopped taking the sick days because I realized why am I taking these sick days?

Amy Schlueter:

We feel guilty, but really they sleep on the couch, so it's the least guilty one. I think Exactly, and he's with they're with another parent and the parents there.

Rosa Lupo:

I didn't drop them off at daycare, pumped up with Tylenol, which you know we've done, we've all done.

Amy Schlueter:

They're all comfortable on their couch.

Rosa Lupo:

We have.

Amy Schlueter:

Oh, yes, oh, we've all done I have a very high bar on staying home. You're fine. Yeah, exactly.

Rosa Lupo:

So you know it, it they're with a parent, and it was me that had to let go of it. It wasn't my spouse saying I don't want to stay home on sick days at all. And then after that it's funny because you know as teachers, once you're over 10 days of sick days, you get brought into HR and they ask you what's your problem?

Rosa Lupo:

And my husband went to this meeting every year for probably six years and talk to the HR person and said I have three children and by the time they all take a couple sick days, I'm over the 10, right. And so there was a method there. There was, but it was me that wasn't letting go. And the other thing is that you know we have these set roles, thinking that the home is our domain, and so you know we have company over, we have private events, we have personal events, we have family events and we feel the need to have perfection at those events. And that was another thing that I really had to let go to realize. You know, the reason my kitchen's a mess is because my husband cooks in it from Monday to Friday, and that's okay, like you know, because he has a different standard of what and it's not really a mess. It's. You know it's a mess to me it's not really a mess. He has a different standard of what's important and I have to let that go. I have to let a lot of things go and stop controlling them and allow him to be the person that is the primary caregiver in the home to me and my children, and that's hard for a woman to let go of. Yes, it is.

Rosa Lupo:

And the other piece of advice I would definitely say to any leader or any woman professional is to have the conversation with your spouse. And so I think we fall into these roles. We don't actually talk about whose role is what and then we resent it. And I don't care what decision you make as a family, because at the end of the day that's your decision to make about who's going to be the primary person at home. Every family makes their own decision. Every woman makes their own decision. Every man makes their own decision about where their role is going to be. But you have to make the decision and not just kind of let it happen. And I think as a society we let it happen and then we fall into these traditional roles and sometimes maybe people are okay with it and that's fine, but sometimes they're not and they just haven't had the discussion and if they'd actually talked about it, the decision might have been different.

Amy Schlueter:

I like that. Talking about it's important for sure. Yeah, thank you, rosa. This has been so wonderful and I've learned so much about your career and you and I've loved all of it.

Rosa Lupo:

Well, thanks for having me, amy, anytime, anytime, for sure, thank you.

Amy Schlueter:

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Amy Schlueter

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