Shaping the Future of Academia: Deborah MacLatchy on Fostering Women in Science and Embracing Leadership Challenges

On today's episode, we talk with Deborah MacLatchy, President and Vice-Chancellor of Wilfrid Laurier University. She is also a zoologist who is passionate about science and is still actively involved in research and mentoring students across Canada.

We discuss the importance of nurturing young girls' interest in science during their high school years, setting the stage for further exploration in university. Deb shares insights into the success of the Laurier Center for Women in Science and addresses the barriers that women still face in attaining leadership roles in academic institutions.

Deb's passion extends beyond academia. She's also deeply committed to promoting equity in sports, particularly at the USport level. We talk about how to lead in different roles, and Deb offers her advice for the next generation of women leaders.

Connect with Deb
LinkedIn

Other Resources
Wilfrid Laurier University
Laurier Centre for Women in Science
Canada University Board
The Museum

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Transcript

Deb: 0:00

But I do think part of being a leader there is a bit of being you know use a zoology analogy a bit of being a chameleon. Sometimes being a leader is about is mostly about listening right. Sometimes being a leader is having new ideas. Sometimes being a leader is making difficult decisions. Some leadership roles need a different part of you brought to the table.

Amy: 0:25

Welcome to Voices of Leadership, the podcast that shines a spotlight on the remarkable women of the International Women's Forum. I'm your host, amy, and I'm inviting you on a journey through the minds of trailblazers. Each episode is a candid conversation with women leaders who are reshaping industries, defying norms and being instigators of change. Through these conversations, we aim to ignite a fire of inspiration within you, whether you are a budding leader, a seasoned executive or simply someone with a passion for growth.

Amy: 0:54

On today's episode, we talk with Debra McClatchy, a distinguished zoologist and current president and vice chancellor of Wilfrid Laurier University. Deb shares insights into the success of the Laurier Center for Women in Science, addresses the barriers that women still face in attaining leadership roles in academic institutions, talks about her passion for equity in sports, and so much more. Hi, Deb, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here. Well, thank you for inviting me, amy. It's great to see you. We are both longstanding members of IWF, and one of the first times I met you was on an IWF tour of the water facility at Laurier, and that was years ago, but it's such a cool building.

Deb: 1:34

Oh well, thank you very much. I'm glad you could go on that tour.

Amy: 1:37

How did you first get involved with IWF I?

Deb: 1:39

got involved with IWF. I think I can't remember if I was Dean of Science at Laurier or I was the Vice President, academic, but it was Ginny Dibenko, who was the Dean of Business at Laurier at the time, who invited me to join an event and then join the organization, and so I've been with.

Amy: 1:58

IWF since then. You're not our first guest. Who said Ginny Jenny brought them in? So you have studied in various institutions across Canada and your PhD is in zoology, with a specific focus on a certain type of fish. How did you discover that area of study?

Deb: 2:17

I think it was a little bit of a journey. For sure, I grew up, actually, in Nova Scotia, so on the Bay of Fundy, by the water, so that was always a really formative. Part of my youth was being by the water. I actually, though, first went fishing with my grandfather, who had a cottage he and my grandmother on Georgian Bay. That was the first time I ever went fishing, but water has always been really important to me, and then, when I went to university and I studied biology, it just became really, you know, clear to me that you know fish, and understanding fish physiology and how fish work and how then, later on, it was about how fish interact with their environment was an area that I was keenly interested in, and it was an area that I wanted to grow and develop in.

Amy: 3:07

It's a great part of the country. I went to Mount Allison, actually Went to Acadia, so there you go. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, close to each other, yeah. So I believe you're still involved in some research and advising students, are you not?

Deb: 3:43

Yes, I am. I have graduate students and I have a lab at Laurier and excited to have students working both in doing laboratory. We disseminate that research to the community and it's great for me to still even be doing that as president projects are they working on right now?

Deb: 4:02

So I have one of my students who's just finishing up now. She's looking at how fish grow and she's trying to understand how contaminants in the environment affect fish growth. She's doing that here at Laurie in the lab. I have a couple of students who are working up north looking at both small bodied fish species and largebodied fish species and large-bodied fish species and seeing how they interact with the environment as well, and that works. A little bit less about contaminants and more about you know. Can we do enough benchmarking now to understand the effects and impacts that climate change is going to have going forward? So really interesting work that all my students are doing.

Amy: 4:45

It sounds like your field of study is just as relevant today as it was when you started Absolutely, which is too bad in some sense.

Deb: 4:53

Yeah, that's right. You kind of do hope that at some point you will get some. And there have a lot, of, a lot of the work that we do do has seen absolutely has seen improvements over time. We do a lot of work in partnership with pulp and paper companies in Canada, for example, and during the 20 to 30 years I've been working with that industry, there has been a lot of improvements in the quality of their effluence, which does benefit the environment. So that's been great.

Amy: 5:25

Well, that's good to hear. So let's talk women in science. You are a founding member of the Laurier Center for Women in Science. What is that?

Deb: 5:33

Yeah, so that's a center at Laurier that does a few things. One thing that it does do is it does do research and disseminates that research on women in science. And so what are the opportunities, what are the challenges? Again, that question of change over time. You know what's working, what's not working, and so that's one part of what it does.

Deb: 5:57

It also is a great connect point for women in science at Laurier and with partner organizations so that women in science can come together and share their science, share their experiences, celebrate one another. And you know, one of the great things it does is that it also includes undergraduate graduate students, postdocs, along with staff and faculty who are scientists at Laurier as well, and so you get that law. You know really a lot of the senior women and mentors in science able to give back to the up-and-coming generations of new scientists. So that continuity, that mentorship, that's that's a great part of what the center does as well. And in fact, dr Shohini Ghosh, who's the director of the Center of Women's Science, is a member of IWF for Waterloo, so it'd be great to have her on a podcast.

Amy: 7:00

Absolutely yes. We'll send her the invite. I didn't know she was the director. That's good to know. Yeah, so is it a fairly new organization, or have you been doing it a while?

Deb: 7:07

Doing it a while. I think we might have had, like, our 10 year anniversary recently. So, yes, yeah, in the last year or so. So yeah, it's been. It's been around a while.

Amy: 7:15

So there's lots of talk all the time about keeping young girls interested in science throughout high school and into university. Is that something that still needs to be addressed throughout?

Deb: 7:25

high school and into university. Is that something that still needs to be addressed? Yeah, it does, in that I mean in some areas of science over my career there's been significant changes. So, for example, when I was an undergraduate student, there were no full-time faculty in the department that I was a student in who were women. And you know, if you looked at biology departments across the country now, you would see that you know we were probably at or close to gender parity in biology departments. But if you were to look at physics departments or math departments maybe some you know chemistry departments you wouldn't find the same.

Deb: 8:05

So there are differences in, say, when you look at sort of bio, biological and health sciences compared to you know the more, the more physical sciences and so that your computer science would be another, another example there.

Deb: 8:22

So those are areas where there's still need to encourage you know, girls and women to, if they do, you know enjoying, you know they're enjoying math or enjoying physics, enjoying chemistry, that you know there's opportunities for them and continue to have them be able to explore those opportunities and, as in any organization or any field, any business where there is a gender imbalance, of course, then there's also challenges of how do people fit in? How do they? You know, how do they bring their real, their true self to their job or their work? You know when you so when you have those, and the same is said for you know when, when you have fields that are very dominant with women compared to men as well. So if you looked at some, some fields like like nursing, for example, right, which is very, very dominated still by women example, right, which is very, very, uh, dominated still by women you also want to address those imbalance imbalances as well.

Deb: 9:29

So, because, of course, society will benefit from male nurses, just like we will benefit from women scientists, women physicists so how do we do that at the high school level, do you think I?

Deb: 9:41

mean really. I think it's having teachers who portray that, that love and that interest of math and science and provide opportunities and continue to encourage people liking it, and sometimes it's not even that, it's just keeping the skill levels up enough and so that those doors stay open right Like once you know that's. The saddest thing I find is that when you know doors were closed for someone in, like, say, grade 10 or something, then the absolute effort that it's going to take from that individual to say, oh, this really is my passion, right, this really is my interest to for them to open up those doors again is going to almost require superhuman effort. Whenever I meet up with young people and they want to know about science, I just say keep working at it, keep your doors open so that you know that all those opportunities when you go to college or university will be continue to be open to you opportunities when you go to college or university will be continue to be open to you.

Amy: 10:48

That's great advice. That's sort of how we talk to our kids too. Because science isn't, it should maybe be like English. You have to keep taking it because they can't cover everything in high school. So we're always saying there's more science branches available, but you do need to do this to access those branches of science. You've talked a lot about the importance of role models, especially for women in science. Were there now. You mentioned there weren't any faculty when you were going through your journey, but were there any role models for you along the way?

Deb: 11:15

There have been, and I and you know, I think it's important to look at role models in different ways, because I think for many people, role models can be of a different gender right, they don't have to be the same gender. So actually, one of my first role models was my dad. My dad's actually a physicist, a scientist, and so he was the one that encouraged me to keep going, going ahead, going ahead in science. So you know, really, that that was my first role model, but I did have great mentors, both at the undergraduate and graduate and, you know, postdoctoral, and then colleagues who have, you know, supported me, encouraged me, been there, been, you know, great colleagues, and and over time, as I became a graduate student and postdoc and a faculty member, there were also more and more women. For us to have a lot of peer-to-peer mentoring, I would say as well, has been really, really important to me. Some of those scientists I still consider both, you know, great peers, great colleagues, great, great mentors and great friends as well. So that's, that's also been terrific.

Amy: 12:29

Well, you mentioned peer to peer mentoring. We often always talk about mentor mentee and I'm not sure we address the importance of peer to peer mentorship as much.

Deb: 12:38

Yeah, no, it's been. It's been a critical part of my, my my journey for sure.

Amy: 12:43

So do you think now are there enough role models today for, I guess, women coming up in science, I suppose what's what's enough?

Deb: 12:51

right, like so, but but yes, but, yes, yes, yeah, you know, I think, for sure there's, there's, there are lots of role models, although, you know, you know we're just in the last, you know six months saw some examples of people using some of the new AI tools and asking, you know, draw me a scientist, and what comes out is, you know, a white male, you know person in a lab coat, with you know, big, bushy hair, and that's what AI sees as a scientist. So, and that, of course, means that that's what was fed into it. As you know, it's, it's training material. So there's still a ways to go, but I think if you watch television, if you pay attention to you know where some of the those social messages are coming from that you have. You have. There has been a change over time, certainly since the 80s, when I was going to school.

Amy: 13:49

I guess you're right. The better question would maybe be how do you cultivate good role models for women in science?

Deb: 13:55

I mean, I think one thing we really have to look at now there's a you know there's a lot of white women who have been successful in in western societies and in science and you know we really want to in to encourage women of you know other backgrounds who are underrepresented, to ensure that they have that equity representation is there and that they have the role models that they need. I think there's been a lot of interest, especially in my area of environmental science, of how do we incorporate Indigenous knowledge into our science, and that should again broaden out the base of who we think of as scientists and who are doing science and how that works, as we, you know, increase more Indigenous students and to become Indigenous scientists, and so I think that those are some of the areas that there's continued work still to be done.

Amy: 15:00

So was a leadership role in a university setting something you always aspired to, or was it something you learned more about throughout your career?

Deb: 15:08

My goal when I was in graduate school was to become a faculty member, and I was very glad to be able to do that.

Deb: 15:15

I my first position was at the University of New Brunswick and it was while I was there that you know you realize as a faculty member how much you know administrative work has to be get get done, and if you know if you want a new program developed or if you want something changed in the system, then really you know it's up to faculty to do it themselves.

Deb: 15:39

And so one of the first things I did administratively in my department was start a new environmental biology program, and that really got me a little bit more interested in sort of the administrative side of things. And I eventually did some work as international director and that was mainly about building partnership programs internationally, and from that I became Dean of Science, and it was as Dean of Science that I came to Laurier in 2007. And that was really an opportunity that I saw at Laurier, where they were really trying to move in the sciences from being primarily undergraduate to being a more comprehensive university with more graduate programs, with more research intensity. And so that was really my pull to come to Laurier, and I've been here ever since.

Amy: 16:40

So how does that work Exactly? So you're Dean of Science and you apply to be the is it Vice President and Chancellor. Is that the official title?

Deb: 16:49

Yeah, I applied to be the Vice President, academic and provost, which is the position at the university to which all the deans report, and so you know, all the academic, the faculties report up to the VP academic and provost, and I did that for eight years and then I applied to be president and became president in 2017 and then was renewed for a second five-year term a couple years ago.

Amy: 17:18

And so you mentioned the academics report to your previous role. What is your main job or purpose, I guess as president of the university?

Deb: 17:28

Oh, that's a great question. It probably depends on who you speak to.

Amy: 17:33

Yes, I mean yeah, lots of roles you talk about doing. I mean, I just listened to you talk to me about how you're still doing research and still advising students, and you're also president of a university that's growing immensely. So I'm more curious how you fit it all in.

Deb: 17:48

Yeah, yeah, I have. I have a great spouse. That is part of it. Yeah, the role of the president is for sure to be an external connector and that's in many ways that's locally in the communities that we're in, so Waterloo, kitchener, brantford, primarily. Now we've got a new campus developing in Milton and I was up in the Northwest Territories a week ago and that was to visit our Yellow Knife Research Office. So you know there is part of that outreach piece and partnership development also with donors and connecting alumni back to the institution in a way that continues to build out the strengths of Laurier and provide opportunities for our students to flourish, for our faculty and staff to grow and develop. Chair senate, which oversees the academic programming. I report to the board. I'm the, you know, the sole individual is the president, that, similar to most organizations, that reports to the board, and so the senior, the senior executive team, reports to me. So there's lots of little hinge points in an institution, but that's's where the president sits as part of that organizational structure.

Amy: 19:17

And do you know how many female presidents are there in Canadian universities currently?

Deb: 19:23

The number changes. It was getting close to 30% a couple of years ago, but I think it's dropped down to kind of the mid-20s. And part of that challenge is they do say that statistically if you can't kind of get to the 30 and a little bit over, it's really hard to push the next wave to get to 50. So that is part of the challenge is that the jobs are getting tougher. They take up a lot of time and effort and it can be a challenge for many reasons for women to move into these roles, partly because oftentimes women's careers are a little bit delayed because perhaps taking on administrative roles, because of childcare, elder care, and you do need enough, a certain amount of experience to to move into a, into a president's role. So there's, there are there are a number of, you know, systemic challenges for more women taking on these roles. I would love to see more.

Amy: 20:30

So that leads to my next question. Outside of career, pauses for a variety of reasons, are there, if there are any, are there any other barriers to women leaders in universities or taking on leadership roles in universities?

Deb: 20:42

And so you know, there's been lots of examples on, you know, for example, in social media, where you know, we know that women get beat up a little bit more on social media than do men, and so there are still systemic barriers to taking on these roles, especially public facing leadership roles, especially public facing leadership roles, public facing leaders. Yes, because you become you do become the public face of everything that happens at the organization, and that's part of that's part of leadership and part of responsibility. But I think, I think the data is there to show that it is particularly hard for women. I know a lot of, and again, bringing one's true self to work. It just gets very, very difficult. In the more public facing a role is perhaps, to bring one's true self, and so that becomes another challenge.

Amy: 21:51

Well, it's another layer when you're making the choice to take that leadership position, because if it's a more quote, unquote normal company, it might not be as public, whereas you know the public element of this and I agree with you the attacks and the way women are treated when they're in a public facing role is not pleasant or equitable in any sense of the word. Yes, you were the recent recipient of the JP Lucemore Award, a university athletic award, and you are also a champion of the elevation of women in sport. Why do you think equity in sport, especially in universities, is so important? Because equity is important.

Deb: 22:26

Yes, let's start with that. You know, I think women's sports is a good example also of how things have changed over time. Right, you know, I think there was a time when, you know, women's sports weren't given the credibility, shall we say, by being in the media or having professional teams and those. So, you know, and you're seeing that change, right, you're seeing a professional women's hockey league now, right, you're seeing professional women's basketball leagues happening, right, like, so there's a lot changing that in women's sport. You're seeing, you know, canadian national soccer teams being doing well, right, doing great. So you know, so those are, so those. So those are changes.

Deb: 23:14

And I think, at the university level, equity is is critically important and valuing equally our student athletes on the men's teams and the women's teams. And for me it's because we also know that physical health is part of mental health, and so a flourishing athletic and recreation department at universities is really critical. And, of course, sport brings communities together, right, it brings the community of the of the university together, you know, students watching their teams. But it also brings alumni back to the institution, it brings community members to the institution. Those things, I think, are part of that community intersection that universities have and play a really important role in our communities, so there's so many different levels of it. I personally, I just love going to varsity games and cheering on the Golden Hawks, and so you know it's a natural for me to have been involved with the Ontario University Athletics.

Amy: 24:26

You mentioned the recreation when you were talking about the overall sports in universities and recreation sports universities was one of the most fun things that I did and I'm wondering if you have a strong varsity program, it must lend to a stronger recreational program.

Deb: 24:41

Yeah, and our students at Laurier are very engaged and you know, really one of the most pressing needs we have right now is, as an institution on the Waterloo campus, is to increase the square footage that we have for recreational play, a referendum to decide whether or not they'll put some more student fees towards additional recreational space. We're also this year are redoing our playing field, the main field for the football team, and last year, a couple of years ago, we redid alumni field, which is where soccer now plays. So you know we do invest in both athletics and recreation because it is such an integrated part, an important part of our students being successful being. You know it helps mental health, it helps physical health and you know it helps their engagement overall and we know that engaged students are successful students.

Amy: 25:47

That's true in every level of education. I think, yes, yes. So you mentioned that you were on your second five-year term. What's next when you're done this term, another term or a different adventure?

Deb: 25:59

Well, we are limited to 10 years, so that's actually a good thing because, you know, universities need new ideas and and get new people in. You know, really I see myself going back to the, eventually, going back to the classroom and going, you know, back more actively in in the laboratory because, first and foremost I'm, you know, a faculty member who loves the life of a faculty and loves being at the university. So I see that as the end game and and yeah, we'll just have to see, because you know I've also learned through life that sometimes you know opportunities come and you'll have you have to look at them when they, when they arrive.

Amy: 26:37

That is true. You don't know where they're going to come from and they could come from. My next question you are on a variety of boards. Can you tell us a little bit about some of the board work that you do?

Deb: 26:46

Yeah, so most of the boards that I'm on are somehow associated with, you know, the university sector. So I'm on, for example, the Laurier board, but also I'm on the Universities Canada board, which is the umbrella organization to which all the Canadian universities are members. I and I'm on a couple of I mentioned the Ontario University Athletics. I'm not on their board anymore, but I was on their board, so I'm on a couple of. I've been on a couple of other sort of Ontario university or post-secondary education boards.

Deb: 27:24

Probably one of the boards I like being on the most is on the museum in Kitchener because that totally gets me out of the university kind of headspace and doing something that's really important for the community, which is supporting arts and culture and supporting opportunities across all the demographics, from, you know, toddlers up to through to seniors, to have access to space and activities that are really engaging them creatively, engaging them in, you know, STEM, science, technology, engineering and math, maker labs and those kinds of those kinds of activities. So that's that's an organization that I really enjoy being being on on the board and it lets me and it lets me give back to the community as well.

Amy: 28:18

They have some interesting exhibits coming in and out. It's been really fun to watch, yeah they do.

Deb: 28:23

Yes, they've got a great one coming up on giraffes, which is going to be phenomenal.

Amy: 28:26

so yes, yes I'll have to look out for that one. Yeah, so you mentioned a lot of your boards are university related, so how do you choose then which board, or is it part of the job to be on some of the boards?

Deb: 28:41

I think it's a job to be on some of them maybe not all of them which I have tried over the last couple of years to also be a little bit smarter, because I've moved on now to the Ontario, onto the sort of the Universities Canada board and as part of that transition I got off of another like Ontario board that I was on.

Deb: 29:02

So I'm trying to be a you know you can't do every everything all the time, so I'm just trying to manage my time a little bit bit better and, and you know I choose based on whether or not I think that I can first of all give something to the organization, but I also feel that it has to be, I have to be getting something back from the satisfaction of doing the job as well. So that's you know. Sometimes you don't know that when going into something, but I also think at some point you know whether it's six, some people sit. You know five years, six years. You know boards need turnover as well, and so you know that's to me. There is a point at which also, you know, a long time in a board probably is too long in a board.

Amy: 29:54

Well, change for the board, but also for you as the board member. You probably don't want it to be too routine, and then you want something that engages you.

Deb: 30:02

I think that's right and you want to make sure, yes, you're still giving new, good, solid advice and, yeah, oversight.

Amy: 30:10

So what is your leadership style? It's different when you're dean of science and it's different when you're in charge of academics and it's different when you're a president. So maybe the better question is how have you adjusted your leadership, or adapted your leadership style with each of your positions over the years?

Deb: 30:27

That's a really good question, I think. I think to some degree. You know, with experience, with age does come a little bit of wisdom and you can be a better, better leader with that experience and over and over time. So when I look back at first year me Dean of Science, right versus now, then of course there's been, you know. Hopefully people will see that there's been a growth trajectory in my, in my leadership.

Deb: 30:56

But I do think part of being a leader there is a bit of being you know use a zoology analogy a bit of being a chameleon, in that you do have to change with the groups you're with or you know not, not your core self, your values, but you know some.

Deb: 31:15

Some leadership roles take a need, a different kind of, a different part of you brought to the table when you're doing that, right, and so sometimes sometimes being a leader is about is mostly about listening, right. Sometimes being a leader is having new ideas. Sometimes being a leader is making difficult decisions, right, and so sometimes they all they take different parts of you. To put it there, I would say that I hope that people would say that I am a good listener, that I will take in information and I will use that information to make good decisions and that I do try to use my heart as much as I use my head. But I mean, obviously sometimes you do have to make hard decisions. That your head needs to rule the day, you know it has to be because at the end of the day, you have to think about the institution first, and that's the way that it goes.

Amy: 32:26

Well, I like that using different parts of yourself and knowing how to access those parts based on the situation. So what advice do you have for the next generation of women leaders?

Deb: 32:35

You know, I really hope that we're getting to a place in society where all people can bring their true selves to leadership roles and that, you know, there's a flexibility in how we, how we look at leaders and different and differences and the values of differences and different leadership styles and different leaders. And so I think there's still a lot of work to be done, but I, you know, I, I am hopeful that you know, the youth of today can, can see that that systems and institutions are adapting right to a way that can have different types of different types of leaders be successful.

Amy: 33:20

I like that and there's value for because the leader has to see value in the places there's leadership in order to step up and want to do it. That's right. So if we show change in those places, hopefully we encourage more women to step up and be leaders. Thank you, Thank you so much, Deb. I mean my goodness. We heard how busy you are and for you to take the time to do this for us in IWF is fantastic, because we've learned lots about what you do and all the things that you've accomplished, so I really appreciate your time.

Deb: 33:50

Oh well, great. Well, thank you very much, and thank you again for inviting me to do this. It was great.

Amy: 33:58

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