Part Two of Bragging Rights: How to Talk about Your Work Using Purposeful Self-Promotion with Lisa Bragg

Are you ready to learn how to talk about your work using purposeful self-promotion?

On today’s episode, we welcome Lisa Bragg, author of Bragging Rights: How to Talk about Your Work Using Purposeful Self-Promotion.

We had so much to talk about that we divided our conversation into two episodes. In part two, Lisa and I continue our conversation about imposter experience. We explore ideas from Lisa's book including the terms double bind, positional and professional influence, the Flip test, Tall Poppy syndrome and how ot start a Bragg book.

If you want to learn how to brag, this is a great place to start.

Connect with Lisa
Website
LinkedIn
Instagram

Resources
TEDWomen 2023
MediaFace
Kristen Pressner - The Flip Test
Dr. Rumeet Billan - Tall Poppy Syndrome
Charlie Bit My Finger

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Transcript

Lisa: 0:00

What I want you to also do, which is almost even more important, is what's that internal validation? What are those things that you're doing that you should be getting kudos for or compliment, but no one's noticed and no one's given it to you? Write it down in there, because then that's also probably something that you need to amplify and let people know, because it matters to you. Have that, that people know that you are awesome in some way, and even if it's for yourself, because you can't too, that's really important.

Amy: 0:27

Welcome to part two of my conversation with Lisa Bragg, author of Bragging Rights how to Talk about your Work Using Purposeful Self Promotion. Lisa and I continue our conversation about imposter experience, why it's never going away and why it's often just in our head. We explore ideas from Lisa's book, including the terms double bind, the flip test, tall poppy syndrome and how to start a Bragg book. If you want to learn how to Bragg, this is a great place to start. Well, I'm experiencing it right now because you're a journalist and a podcaster and I'm a new podcaster, so I'm just going through it and asking questions.

Lisa: 1:02

It's all in your own head, and sometimes that head is that it was in our head is great friend of ours, and sometimes it's that frenemy and that enemy. That is not good. And you know what, though? When we tell people sometimes that we're new at something, the other person will be much more gracious about it. She'll give you that helping hand or give you that you're doing a great job pat on the back, keep going, that we need along the way.

Lisa: 1:27

So often we think, oh well, we should always be helping the next generation. I always want to help the next generation, but I also want to help people who are my peers or even people who are ahead of me. How can I help all of us to get ahead? Because if we're all helping each other, no matter what age and stage, that's where we move ahead. It's glorious. Dynum has a great comment about letting everyone's torch and not just passing the torch. That's where we can have all of us can have much more belonging, and that's, I think, what's going to help us change things, is having that belonging feeling, no matter what age and stage, especially as people are working into their 80s by choice and by passion and by service to the world.

Amy: 2:07

I like that because I mean we can help somebody in transition, no matter what stage they're at. That's when they need the help, is when they're in transition generally.

Lisa: 2:15

Yeah, and that's so. It's interesting because people think my book is for young people. I've actually written it for people who are mid to late stage and a lot of people that gave me information on the research. They've been all the places. All of us have been here listening in, and so it's interesting to see. Yes, it's a book that would be great to have when you're starting out, but it also really resonates for the people who are mid to late to do in their own thing. It really does matter, and the more we can let people know, the better it is for all of us.

Amy: 2:47

Well, you mentioned generational. I'm curious is bragging different in generations, Do you think?

Lisa: 2:54

It doesn't seem to, because we all think, oh, the young people are all on social media, they should be so easy with it. And then the people who are super accomplished, ocean, they'd be able to do it. They've done all those things, and it's no, and it's interesting doing the research. So I didn't want this to be my perspective and I'm a white Canadian woman so I didn't want it to just be from my lens. I thought it was maybe just me at the beginning and then I realized, looking back, I'm like no, no, no, it was all these people. So I set out to do research on it and you know, I looked at all the. I did a literature review seeing what research had been done, and most of it had been done on American University cohorts. So we're talking people who are 20, 21 years old, and then all these professional magazines are talking about it as if it's for all of us, and so that was very curious to me. So I wanted to get a grasp on the world of work and all the ages and stages out there, and so my international research is still open. But what I extrapolated for the book was really interesting that it's not just Canadian women, it's American women. And I thought, for sure, no way for New Yorkers. You know, we always think of them as bold and going for it.

Lisa: 4:03

But one of my first people, when I was testing my theory at TED Women, she said, she said I gave her my theory and she said, oh, lisa, of course that's for me. I'm, I'm, I'm a Catholic. And I was like, oh, my goodness, okay. And so so many different levels to what makes us are, you know, unique. The intersectionality of it really does play into it. And so I talked to women in India, I talked to people in Australia, the UK, japan, a panel of women, because it's very different there, because there's much more collectivists than many other countries now, where we are more in an individualistic society. So how does it play in?

Lisa: 4:43

And then the next question often is well, what about men? And so I thought again I'm writing this for women, I'm going to help my sisters. Well, I've had so many men reach out to me and in the research too, what I found and discovered, what it was quite a bit of, is socioeconomic. So, depending on where you are when you're young allows you to say I can break rules or I can't break rules. And so if you've been taught because of your low socioeconomic status, not to break rules. You're less likely to talk about your successes because bragging is before this book. Bragging was deemed for so long taboo and so you missed out on opportunities because of that. So all this was such so interesting to find out. The research and people told me in the data and the research, but also in interviews after the fact, of how much money they lost, the opportunities lost that they deserved, and it irks them to today that they lost those opportunities. So it's been interesting.

Amy: 5:47

What's comforting to know we're all on the same boat on this, so it's good.

Lisa: 5:51

So many of us. That's where it's not just me I thought it was a little me and it's not. There's so many of us who need this and that's why I'm the joy of like oh, I bought it for a friend too. Now we're doing a book study. I'm like oh, my goodness, I love that. It's so much fun to hear about it because the book is still new, so it's still a baby. So it's interesting to see it go out in the world.

Amy: 6:13

So in the book you talk about the term double bind and how women can navigate this challenge. Can you explain what that term is and how women can navigate this challenge?

Lisa: 6:24

Well, a lot of it is Talk about your success but don't talk about your success. Be successful but don't talk about it. So how do you do that? Like it's a double bind, like you can't make it happen. And so that's where it's being strategic, where there's women we've heard she's too ambitious, that's why she didn't get the job, like we can't have that ambition. So, like, how do you show that you're ambitious when you can't show that you're ambitious? How do you show those things? And so it's really again being strategic and saying well, within this organization, I can't let everyone know I'm doing something. So who do I need to tell? Who's that one person that needs to know that I'm doing something? And so that's where being intentional about what you're going to do can really help you figure it out. So, but I want to throw it back to you. Have you been in a double bind? Is that why you that's the one of them that picked up on for you, or what were you thinking with double bind? Probably.

Amy: 7:23

I liked it because it was an interesting part of what you were talking about and it's not a common term. I mean, if I say imposter, syndrome or experience, pretty much people will know what I'm talking about. If I say double bind, it may not really speak to everybody or we may define it differently. I think for me personally it's similar to that. It's you stand up for yourself or you talk about your experience, or you haven't forbid ask a question and you're labeled difficult. So it's similar in that sense.

Lisa: 7:55

And that's where we need to have each other's backs more, because we get it all the time of well, who do you think you are? That was one of the things that came up over and over. Who do you think you are? We have it in our own head, but it's also socially when you get that, and that's why we need to cheer each other on more and so becoming each other's cheerleaders. There's a continuum of it.

Lisa: 8:16

But starting off as a cheerleader and cheering other people on when they're successful, it doesn't harm your successful level at all. And as we go in our careers, we all say, oh, we're all facilitators, we want to help each other, but you know what? A lot of us become obstructors along the way and close those doors on people. But we do. We want to help the next generation, but when you're at my level, am I going to help you as much? So that's a challenge to the people listening we think we are, but we're not. It's a double bind for us trying to be successful and then share our successes. And how do we help each other? Do the same thing? And so, considering that, are you helping, facilitate and cheer somebody on? Because we need those cheerleaders, and also, if someone's going for a job or a role, am I biased against her Because she has been talking about her successes with pride and justified self-love?

Amy: 9:07

Well, you would think we talked, because that's a perfect segue, because my next question was going to be about Kristen Pressner's flip test. So talk to us a little bit about that and how people can apply it to their lives to help avoid unconscious bias and internalize sexism.

Lisa: 9:22

Yeah, find it on. It's a TED talk, it's Kristen Pressner. She's just so brilliant and I know other people have done it before, but she has made it so succinct on how she delivers it. And so she's HR at Big Pharma, and so she tells how she had two different employees ask her to review their pay, how much they're getting, and their compensation. And so well, she did and she showed them how they worked, realized afterwards that she was biased and she thought the man needed more, but the woman, well, she had a husband, so they're okay.

Lisa: 9:55

Well, the draw-dropper on that is that chrisen presser is the breadwinner for her family, but she thought that the man should be compensated more because he's probably the breadwinner. That's not right. So she realize she had to flip it to test it. So she shows in the video how you flip the image. So if we saw An image of a police officer, what do you automatically put in there? A pilot, and would you automatically put a woman in that? And so when you say something, so she shouldn't be bragging about her successes, would you say that a better man he shouldn't be talking about his successes like you wouldn't say that, or would you do that with a woman? So would you flip it? You know what like for childcare responsibilities? Well, she has childcare responsibilities. Well, it's a disservice to the man to think that he's not taking parent parental leave and so we need to flip it, to test it for all of our Sakes, for belonging to think okay, now, that's my bias, to think that he doesn't need what she needs. But you know, it's mostly that she does. She also needs what he needs. So, thinking about it that way, so it's a great you, great you to buy things like ten minutes.

Lisa: 11:02

But in the book I mentioned her and she was so generous to give me a few of her thoughts on it to but allowing ourselves to flip it, to test it, to say am I biased? Am I causing this person harm by not allowing them to also amplify their successes? Are, think, I think, the lesser of them because they are. And then when we're doing that, I'm gonna wag my finger here, though it's also that what does it say about me when I think that of her? And so often, so many people don't brag and talk about their successes because we're worried about what other people think. And so if you're the other person thinking that thinking, what does it say about you, and it's often that you're actually in a scarcity mindset and you feel less than so. Yeah, giving away lots of the book, but that's the whole thing. How can we be generous with each other and think about success together?

Amy: 11:53

Yeah, it was a great part, because I think it's applicable in so many parts of life. You can use it anywhere to help lessen the bias that we all have inherently just can't help it.

Lisa: 12:03

And again, you know what it's all the world's changing so fast. So what was Right? Fifteen years ago? We didn't know what we didn't know, and our knowledge is growing with that. So how do we help all of us along this continuum to be the best we can be?

Amy: 12:18

You also talk about the difference between positional and professional influence and why we want to focus on the ladder.

Lisa: 12:24

Yeah. So so many of us I'm a CEO or I'm the VP, or I'm not for her or whatever it is the challenges that so many people are only Seeing that way are given opportunities because of their title, and that's problematic. So you don't want to make your whole life based on getting that VP or the e-vp or whatever title it is, because what one day you might not have a title and so will you have still that community around you, and that's why community is so important, because you're in transition time. So many of us do have transition times now where you might not be part of what the regular music air quotes here Work force looks like. So we're in transition and I'm no longer the you know the svp, the director. I'm no longer the CEO. What is my power in the world? Will people stop calling me because I'm no longer that position? They will stop calling you. You're gonna think you know they'll still call me. They'll still remember me.

Lisa: 13:23

I have many friends and many people that as soon as they left their big title, they were person on grata. Nobody remembered who they were, nobody invited them to anything, and that's why we want to have professional power and that's where we made our networks outside of our silo and beyond, so that people know us and they can also tap into us at any time in our career For an opportunity that we might not have thought of. And it's beyond the title. Titles are fleeting. People make up titles my. I have one of the earliest chief story teller. That was one of twenty years ago.

Lisa: 13:55

Story teller we're making up titles all the way through and I know corporate we have our org charts and this is how it's always been. We're seeing more and more new titles come in and people flexing all around, so professional influence is more important than your positional influence for the long game that we're all playing.

Amy: 14:13

What do you want to move careers or change? Today, the title is less important than the network that you've cultivated in the relationships you've built along the way.

Lisa: 14:23

You just said it's so succinct because that's what it is. It's exactly that and that's the gold, and titles might not mean anything. You're, you know your business of one at the end of the day. So what does it look like? You can be cheered the CEO of your life, no matter what the day. But what looks like on the outside to other people? You know, some people only contact you if you are that CEO of a trillion dollar account, and then when you're not there anymore, who are you? So you know who you are, so let the whole world know about it.

Amy: 14:55

So talk to us about tall poppy syndrome. I like that term quite a bit, and can you give us some examples?

Lisa: 14:59

Yeah. So my friend Dr Rameet Billan she really did an extensive study on it. She's a Canadian too, but her it's a term that came out of Australia and it's Australians really picked it up fast and then people from the UK and of course here in Canada we talk about it too now. But what it comes down to is that in so many societies and organizations we have those people that start to go ahead of us, so they're starting to creep up, and then you know what? We come along and we lob off the top and poppies farmers lob off the top. They don't want, they want uniformity. They want them to grow together. But we don't want that in the workplace, but we do that to each other or we do it as an organization where we are shining stars. We don't want them to shine, so we diminish them, we keep them hidden gems, we demote them, we don't promote them, we do different things and it's again it's often what women do to other women. That's what my friends research.

Lisa: 15:53

Dr Rameet Billan found that it's not necessarily the organization which does it a little bit, but it's often we do it to each other. Which is so sad and then there's part of it is that there's only one seat at the table Might have been true in the 80s, 70s, 80s and early 90s, but now we can make our own tables. You know we can all bring an extra chair. You know this. We can make a folding table. We've heard these things before, but it comes down to are we diminishing other people who are more successful than ourselves? And so you have to again look. Am I being biased against them because they are more successful and understand that some people will get ahead for a short time and then it's your term to get a time to get ahead.

Lisa: 16:31

Tall Poppy, we cut each other down and we just have to stop doing that and realize that. What is it about the cutter, the person who's doing the cutting? What is it about them? And it's not about me, it's them. So when we have that catty-ness that I wish would go away, it's not about us, it's about them. So what's their problem? And I don't even care, don't even worry about what their problem is, it's their problem to hold and to take away with. You need to keep doing the best you can be and be as awesome as you can.

Amy: 17:00

And it relates back to the S-curve you mentioned too. If you are trying something new and you're not quite a master at it, there's no need to cut down those who are further along the curve, because if you're working and doing what you're trying to accomplish, you're going to come up the S-curve eventually.

Lisa: 17:16

Yeah, and that's where we reframe collaboration over competition. Yes, there are only so many things out there, but if I can collaborate with you, then I can look also like the awesome person that you are. Then I'm seeing the same light. So you're calling yourself the expert of so-and-so Well, if I'm doing something with you, then I'm probably the expert of so-and-so-so Right. So it's like we can also be seen that way. So it's not just that there's only one. There's just so many of us in the world right now that there isn't just going to be one grandpa boss, yeah, true.

Amy: 17:50

So I'd like to take the concept of bragging and one's comfortableness with it, and what are your thoughts on how bragging affects the gender wage gap?

Lisa: 18:00

Well, so many of us, especially women you mentioned perfectionism already we wait till we're perfect. We expect other people to anoint us and to tell us that we should get that promotion, instead of saying no, I need it, I need the money now, and asking for it. We don't come prepared because we think everyone else is watching, because we're watching, so we're not always prepared. So that's where I always recommend, no matter what age and stage is to start your brag book and you've heard it before but really have that smile file, all those things that show what you've been doing in your organization all the way along. Make sure that you're telling your team to start one. So make sure that she is collecting the evidence along the way of how she understands the business at a deep level. She understands how she's helped the company grow, she understands whatever it is that matters to you as the leader. She gets it and you're letting her in on what the true agenda is, because we always have here's the corporate agenda, but as a leader, here's my agenda we're letting her in on that, so then she can have the metrics and collect things along the way. We need artifacts To have proof right, so we have to collect it along the way. So, no matter which position as a leader because I know so many of us are leaders listening to this Tell your team to collect it. It makes your life so much easier. And then you can also say well, you know what? I'm not paying Susie as much as I'm paying Tom, and they're both showing me the exact same things. So what is that? What is the biased against what Susie is doing versus Tom? So I think we really can close more by bringing more evidence and not just, you know, hoping somebody else will talk about our successes. We're showing how we are really moving the dial with the business and working on activities that are business drivers.

Lisa: 19:44

So I think there's a big part of it. So I think we need to talk about our successes more. Guys are ready to schmooze and tell you all of it, plus 110%, plus a bag of chips, plus all those things when we're still waiting for other people to talk about our successes. And so that's where women identified. They knew they've lost over their career span million dollars. One woman reported because she didn't advocate at a few strategic times for a promotion, a wage increase, and then it was. She saw the trajectory of where then her male counterpart Ended up because a few pivotal moments that she didn't take advantage of. So yeah, it was really fascinating to find out.

Amy: 20:25

Well, intellectually, I understand the value of collecting evidence. I think that that would be important, but I will admit that when I read the paragraph about starting a brag book, emotionally I was like I can't do that. I didn't even know where to start. I paused and thought about it and I thought, well, I don't know how I would do that. So it's a great point, but definitely a challenging task.

Lisa: 20:46

It is, but make it simple on yourself. Don't try to go back in time because that's exhausting. So today, when someone gives you a compliment like hey, you're a great interviewer.

Amy: 20:56

There, I just cut that. I'm gonna keep it copy that, yeah.

Lisa: 20:59

First of all, it helps you on those days that are blue Right. Yeah, copy it and put it in your smile file. I'll count. Copy it for your brag book. That, hey, somebody said I'm a good interviewer because I have great listening skills. And then if somebody gives you a compliment in an email or on a you know performance review or Passing on the street where they say, hey, great, hat like it can be, that it can be that little right, it doesn't have to be everything grounded in these great big metrics, but have it there that you have this External validation.

Lisa: 21:31

But what I want you to also do, which is almost even more important, is what's that internal validation? What are those things that you're doing that you should be getting kudos for or compliment, but no one's noticed and no one's given it to you. Write it down in there, because then that's also probably something that you need To amplify and let people know because it matters to you. So when you think, hey, you know what I've done, this great thing, I've done all these podcasts, or I've done this great work and you know I've hosted these great dine-arounds and people should know that I'm a great host, whatever it is like have that, that people know that you are awesome in some way, and even if it's for yourself, because you can't too, that's really important. So just start writing that one thing today and it can be just something that you have a little book on the side of your desk or some sort of folder and start putting things in there and Compliment yourself.

Lisa: 22:20

If you didn't get a compliment this week or today, then think about that one thing that you did. That's like hey, you know what? It could be as simple as I got dressed like during the pandemic. It was that we were Celebrating that we got dressed that day. Well, why aren't?

Lisa: 22:33

we still celebrating like whatever it is that matters, like you did that one thing. Good on you, you did your hair. Good on you Landed a billion dollar client. Good on you, you landed. You know whatever it is, that you bought a good book. That's gonna help you. Whatever it is that's the matter gonna matter. It's just small things that end up to being big things as we go forward.

Amy: 22:54

It's great advice. I'm gonna give it a try, I promise good, I want to see it.

Lisa: 22:58

Send me a few. I love hearing them.

Amy: 23:01

So let's layer the concept of mentorship on top of the book. So, or the concept of bragging, I guess, or learning how to be seen and heard. How can mentors help mentees learn to be seen and heard?

Lisa: 23:14

Yeah, so, and just remember, we meant we can be all, no matter agent stage, a mentor and a mentee, and so it could be somebody who is 85 being meant being mentored by somebody who is 15 years old. So we always think that it's older, elder, younger. It is not that way at all. So it's really how do you make sure that someone? You articulate the strengths that you see in front of you? So when you see someone and they're doing awesome things, tell them that they are doing awesome things and let them know. So I think it's part of that is letting your mentee know that they are navigating in this world. So I go through I even more my teaching.

Lisa: 23:50

It's not just so many women are told to be mentors and mentees not only gets us so far. What I really want us to all do is how do we become champions of each other? So we have sponsors, champions and brand ambassadors, and so what I really want us to do is be that brand ambassador. So brand ambassador is that person who's talking about you, who might not have never met you, but is talking about the good work that you're doing in the rooms that you're not In that point in time. That's what you really need and that's the gold, gold, the pinnacle of the book that if you can get that stage, that's amazing. And so being a brand ambassador, when somebody helping open those doors, it's such a great feeling. But there's steps along the way of how do we really help and making sure that our organizations have those people in there. So you know, formally we do have mentors and sponsors often, but how do we make sure those sponsors know how to interact with their teams and find them that right person to sponsor that young person or old person? How do we then become champions of people to help them to? You know, figure out that maybe I shouldn't be in the silo of marketing anymore. Maybe I need to do something that's much more Business focused or responsible for a pnl or something like that, like what do I need to do? And so thinking about it that way of how do I actually help champion someone's career beyond just this next Move is really important.

Lisa: 25:12

But, mentor mentioned, we can all mentor each other and give us those stories of you know what this is, what happened to me, don't do this again. Or here's how I open that door and found success in it. And you know, the world might be exactly the same way for you, but I want to tell you my steps of success, cuz it's moments along the way that matters. Challenges we often only see those milestones of when you're standing there with a beautiful award. That's a milestone, but how about the moments that got you there?

Lisa: 25:42

Let's tell each other those stories, cuz it's not just luck when we say that we diminish so much for us all, that lucky I was just luck. No, it's not luck, it's not lucky did so many great things to get there. Please tell me, please tell me, please tell me. If you have a book that's in your time's best, I'll please tell me what you did. Please tell me Along the way. I want to know how you did what you did, so then maybe it's easier for my journey in the journey of people who will come after me.

Amy: 26:10

I agree, the journey is always the more interesting story, anyway, than the milestone. Yeah, so what do you think the biggest challenge facing women leaders today is?

Lisa: 26:20

Oh, my goodness, you know what, if I had that, I would write another book. And you know, I think one of the things that we can achieve is being seen and heard. So that's where I think that is a big hurdle, where if more of us were seen and heard and people knew how we are here to serve, then we would be able to change things a lot faster. And it's not about the noise, it's about having an intentional message that will make the difference. So often we think the next person will do it. You know, they'll be the change that we want to see, but unfortunately it has to come down to, often, just us. And if we get, you know, our allies and whatever organizations were in all the organizations were in to help promote us, to help, you know, amplifier message, then we'll make the change that we want to see, cuz I think so often we, a lot of us, feel muted In this world.

Lisa: 27:14

That is not my place to say anything. You know that I should let other people. I'm always passing the microphone, but we keep passing the microphone, which, if you are too much at the mic, yes, you need to pass it, but so often we think, well, just pass it to the next person cuz she's never had it. Well, yes, and Get another microphone and share that microphone. Bring her with you in the same message. Then we look stronger together instead of always passing the microphone along. I think that's where we need to amplify each other and show up for each other and cheer each other on more and more and open doors for each other. So that collectivist attitude in this very individualistic society, I think is part of what's gonna help us along the way is sharing each other and and being there for each other.

Amy: 27:59

Well, that's great advice. I think we can all learn from that.

Lisa: 28:03

Well, specially this organization, like, come on it's, it's meant for this whole messaging of all the awesome is that's here and the brains and that just the mission and vision that that could be here and that is here, and then Attracting more of those people that really are the achievers that that we need in the world and that we need to see more of, and let them do great things and tell others so that they can do a bigger great things.

Amy: 28:32

I agree, lisa. Thank you so much for being here. I really loved talking to you because it brought the book to life and that was a privilege for me to be able to do that with you.

Lisa: 28:43

What an honor. Thank you for sharing you with this awesome audience. I'm so excited to get to know more of you as I continue my journey, and I appreciate your time me. Thank you so much.

Amy: 28:54

And before we go, tell us where can we find the book.

Lisa: 28:57

Well, get it wherever you get books. So every now, so exciting. It's available not just as a print book but also as an audio book, because I have friends who have neurodivergent, so doing the audio book was really important to me. So there's an audio book and, of course, there's an ebook out there in the world to. So go get it wherever you get books and if you can write a review. So this is my ask right over you, because it really does count. We don't think that when we write a review matters, but it really does matter. To anyone who has a podcast, anyone who has a small business, anyone who's doing anything, it does matter to write those reviews and especially for authors, getting their little baby books out into the world so more people can see it and know about it really does make a difference. So that's that's my ask today. So thank you.

Amy: 29:42

You're welcome. Congratulations on the book and I look forward to hearing about your next book, thank you. Thank you for listening today. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and subscribe to our podcast. When you do this, it raises our podcast profile so more leaders can find us and be inspired by the stories our voices of leadership have to share. If you would like to connect with us, please visit the voices of leadership website. It can be found in our show notes.